Has anybody seen these yet?

[hbiss]

Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see anything about run time.

EcoFlow DELTA Pro Portable Power Station

The new EcoFlow Delta Pro is a 120-volt 3600-watt power station that can be expanded to 4500 watts with X-Boost Technology. If your appliances can use 240 volts, the Delta Pro can also be increased to 7200 watts at 240 volts by linking two Delta Pro units together with the Ecoflow EcoFlow Double...

allprogenerators.com

-Hal

 

[gadfly56]

Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see anything about run time.

EcoFlow DELTA Pro Portable Power Station

The new EcoFlow Delta Pro is a 120-volt 3600-watt power station that can be expanded to 4500 watts with X-Boost Technology. If your appliances can use 240 volts, the Delta Pro can also be increased to 7200 watts at 240 volts by linking two Delta Pro units together with the Ecoflow EcoFlow Double...

allprogenerators.com

-Hal

Computer UPS on steroids. At $4K for 3.6 kW-hr, I'm guessing that the 25 kW-hr is going to run about $24K. At that price, two Tesla PowerWall II's would be cheaper and give you slightly greater capacity, albeit for a fixed installation only. I admit it, if I had the cash, I'd be strongly tempted to get one. My computer could run for a week on that!

 

[Todd0x1]

There's a ton of these sort of thing out there now. They are why CA thinks its ok to ban the sale of new gas generators. No one has done the math to see how many battery boxes you need to replace a honda eu7000i and 2x 5gal cans of gas.

 

[wwhitney]

There's a ton of these sort of thing out there now. They are why CA thinks its ok to ban the sale of new gas generators.

The ban on sale of portable gasoline generators manufactured after January 1, 2028 is an air quality measure. You will still be able to buy a diesel, propane or natural gas generator.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[GoldDigger]

Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see anything about run time.

EcoFlow DELTA Pro Portable Power Station

The new EcoFlow Delta Pro is a 120-volt 3600-watt power station that can be expanded to 4500 watts with X-Boost Technology. If your appliances can use 240 volts, the Delta Pro can also be increased to 7200 watts at 240 volts by linking two Delta Pro units together with the Ecoflow EcoFlow Double...

allprogenerators.com

-Hal

To first approximation, since no mechanical losses. you divide the kwh given by the load kw. And integrate over time.

 

[Todd0x1]

The ban on sale of portable gasoline generators manufactured after January 1, 2028 is an air quality measure. You will still be able to buy a diesel, propane or natural gas generator.

Cheers, Wayne

Its not gasoline, its spark ignition so no propane or NG either.

 

[wwhitney]

Its not gasoline, its spark ignition so no propane or NG either.

I can't find any clarity online on whether that's true or not. Various non-official websites say that it's gasoline only. A random CARB document mentioned in passing that engines running on natural gas or propane are not currently covered by their evaporative emissions standards.

But the "small off road engine" definition is limited to 19 kW / 25 hp and currently exempts stationary generators. Are their portable propane or natural gas generators that are under that size? If not, the question doesn't need answering, unless the definition is also changing in 2028.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[ramsy]

CARB approves updated regulations requiring most new small off-road engines be zero emission by 2024 | California Air Resources Board​

The regulation Todd posted above makes exception for retailers selling old inventory. Ad 10+ yrs to 2028 before old inventory nears depletion.

there will be no “ban” on using older models or used equipment purchased in the future. Older models on store shelves can also be purchased even if they are gasoline-powered.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Will California have check points? Could you go to Nevada and buy a gas generator and smuggle it back in?

I rember years ago their were check points in the 60's. They were looking for plants. I can't rember if it was to enter Calif or to leave.

 

[zbang]

California has agricultural checkpoints on the way in; mostly they're looking for large trucks and moving vans that might have ag. pests. I've never been stopped at one in my car.

Could you go to Nevada and buy a gas generator and smuggle it back in?

Sure, just as people go to Nevada to buy solvents they can't get locally. The main thing is that by banning the sales of some things, it reduces their presence; most people aren't going to go out-of-state to get a leaf blower and over time there will be fewer gas-powered leaf blowers in the state.

 

[ggunn]

No one has done the math...

That is highly unlikely.

 

[Todd0x1]

That is highly unlikely.

I mean they probably have, but when pushing their gas engine ban the narrative was "there are equivalent battery powered options on the marketplace that have a reasonable tco when compared to gas engines" I remember leaf blowers they uses availability of battery ones and compared their output against the smallest gas engine ones for justification while ignoring the output of the backpack models and the non existent battery replacement for those.

Take for example a Honda EU7000is with two 5 gallon gas cans. About $5200 for the gen and gas cans. That setup will give you 18 hours of full load runtime or about 133KWH. Compare to the ecoflow battery unit posted above. You would need two units plus 42 additional battery packs at a total cost of around $60,000.00 to get that same 7kw max output and 133KWH of storage.

 

[Buck Parrish]

California has agricultural checkpoints on the way in; mostly they're looking for large trucks and moving vans that might have ag. pests. I've never been stopped at one in my car.


Sure, just as people go to Nevada to buy solvents they can't get locally. The main thing is that by banning the sales of some things, it reduces their presence; most people aren't going to go out-of-state to get a leaf blower and over time there will be fewer gas-powered leaf blowers in the state.

Amen to the getting rid of leaf blowers. It's the noise polution that bothers me.

 

[__dan]

The market for 'solar generators' is still very new with lots of new products and increasing competition.

The Delta Pro, one things I saw about them is they are advertised having a battery recharge cycle count rating about 3600 (irrc). Ecoflow's other smaller models, battery cycle count is rated about 600 times. I had done some rough numbers long ago. I was looking for the million mile battery and the recharge cycle count it would need was about 4000.

Costco has them and Costco runs regular sales on them. Costco has great buyers. They shop for quality.

Don't know the kWh rating of the batteries but the unit is 97 pounds, and it's Li-ion, not lead acid. They're a new product, so, somebody else will be testing the smoke limit, how many solar panels and kitchen stuff can be plugged in and run, ride through on batteries for 24 hr. Don't know if it's built sturdy enough to run front line duty as an off grid power station, panels and inverter running flat out every day. But I'm looking for something like it.

For the amount of use a typical Honda or Yamaha portable inverter genset gets, it would be cheaper to buy the engine version and the gas. But if you have to add the time and labor of running to Citgo every week to make your lights work, a long life of runtime, the Delta Pro could easily get an order of magnitude cheaper. Older 5kW non inverter gas generators could burn 1 gallon / hr. The new ones sip gas, but only at low load.

 

[gadfly56]

The market for 'solar generators' is still very new with lots of new products and increasing competition.

The Delta Pro, one things I saw about them is they are advertised having a battery recharge cycle count rating about 3600 (irrc). Ecoflow's other smaller models, battery cycle count is rated about 600 times. I had done some rough numbers long ago. I was looking for the million mile battery and the recharge cycle count it would need was about 4000.

Costco has them and Costco runs regular sales on them. Costco has great buyers. They shop for quality.

Don't know the kWh rating of the batteries but the unit is 97 pounds, and it's Li-ion, not lead acid. They're a new product, so, somebody else will be testing the smoke limit, how many solar panels and kitchen stuff can be plugged in and run, ride through on batteries for 24 hr. Don't know if it's built sturdy enough to run front line duty as an off grid power station, panels and inverter running flat out every day. But I'm looking for something like it.

For the amount of use a typical Honda or Yamaha portable inverter genset gets, it would be cheaper to buy the engine version and the gas. But if you have to add the time and labor of running to Citgo every week to make your lights work, a long life of runtime, the Delta Pro could easily get an order of magnitude cheaper. Older 5kW non inverter gas generators could burn 1 gallon / hr. The new ones sip gas, but only at low load.

To clarify, it's LiFePO₄

 

[__dan]

Yes. The recharge cycles rating was what I was looking for.

At 3600 recharge cycles, that's about 10 years of daily recharge cycles. If you're going to use it 10 or 20 times in 10 years, the Honda plus the gas is far cheaper. But if you want to use it daily, it's how long will the battery last until it's toast. Not sure if I believe the 3500 times count number, but if it does that, it's a winner.

The cheap APC UPS units have small lead acid gel cell batteries that look like they're for starting a garden tractor. Those are not good for much more than 3 - 5 years even in standby with no cycling. Then they go straight to the dumpster when they fail to work after 5 years, batteries get like it's air between the terminals. No one I know of ever charges the batteries on those or is even aware of the issue. APC has great marketing. But when you look inside the case there's mostly air in there. I can never trust APC and don't even bother fishing their stuff out of the dumpster for parts and playthings.

 

[ggunn]

Yes. The recharge cycles rating was what I was looking for.

At 3600 recharge cycles, that's about 10 years of daily recharge cycles. If you're going to use it 10 or 20 times in 10 years, the Honda plus the gas is far cheaper. But if you want to use it daily, it's how long will the battery last until it's toast. Not sure if I believe the 3500 times count number, but if it does that, it's a winner.

The cheap APC UPS units have small lead acid gel cell batteries that look like they're for starting a garden tractor. Those are not good for much more than 3 - 5 years even in standby with no cycling. Then they go straight to the dumpster when they fail to work after 5 years, batteries get like it's air between the terminals. No one I know of ever charges the batteries on those or is even aware of the issue. APC has great marketing. But when you look inside the case there's mostly air in there. I can never trust APC and don't even bother fishing their stuff out of the dumpster for parts and playthings.

I have had one for several years on my work computer though I have never had to use it. The other day its alarm went off although the grid was not out. When I investigated I found that my computer had been plugged into the surge protection only side the whole time. The UPS side is toast.

 

[__dan]

I have had one for several years on my work computer though I have never had to use it. The other day its alarm went off although the grid was not out. When I investigated I found that my computer had been plugged into the surge protection only side the whole time. The UPS side is toast.

Likely there's a 12 V small lead acid gel cell in there that's about $25., if you wanted to replace the battery. But I don't recommend that unless you really need a UPS for the PC. The line conditioning type on the cheap APC units, I forget what the topology is called but they sit on the utility power with some spd filters, and swap to battery inverter rather lazily. Line interactive, not double conversion, but the whole APC methodology does not inspire confidence (they're great at selling air).

I get better performance from brand name home theater type spd strips, without the hassle of fake unreliable promised battery runtime. I just ignore the battery. Why buy the battery if it disappears functionally by itself in 3 - 5 years. I buy Belkins and Tripp Lite spd strips when they go on sale.

They are starting to come out with very cheap inverters that plug onto lithium cordless power tool batteries.

Years ago there was a company, Best UPS, that built their machines with fully online internal ferro resonant transformers. I was aware of this even though they were pretty expensive. The ferro resonant xfrmr was always online and would swap to battery as needed. Ride through just from the ferro resonant line conditioner could be 1/2 sec.

They were about $900 for a PC sized unit back then. I came across a used reseller who had truckloads of them from some insurance company take outs. I cleaned out his remaining inventory for $75. each.

I changed the batteries and sent them back out to friends and family, but have been slowly getting them back as they stop using them. I probably have two or three in the basement and one under the computer workstation desk that makes no noise because it's not plugged in. I gave up on changing the batteries but I am keeping them because of the ferro resonant technology, hard to find today. Ferro resonant will take a nearby lightning strike and not go to battery.

They're going to get another life in service one day but just not today.

 

[macmikeman]

The sailing crowd knows all about them, most cruising sailors keep a setup on board , because they are very useful when the generator breaks down which is usually every voyage... Or the week long storms that shut down the pv panels from charging the batteries. They can power the typical auto pilot for around 20 hours, and the typical Nav Station gear for maybe 200 hours or so.

 

[gadfly56]

Likely there's a 12 V small lead acid gel cell in there that's about $25., if you wanted to replace the battery. But I don't recommend that unless you really need a UPS for the PC. The line conditioning type on the cheap APC units, I forget what the topology is called but they sit on the utility power with some spd filters, and swap to battery inverter rather lazily. Line interactive, not double conversion, but the whole APC methodology does not inspire confidence (they're great at selling air).

I get better performance from brand name home theater type spd strips, without the hassle of fake unreliable promised battery runtime. I just ignore the battery. Why buy the battery if it disappears functionally by itself in 3 - 5 years. I buy Belkins and Tripp Lite spd strips when they go on sale.

They are starting to come out with very cheap inverters that plug onto lithium cordless power tool batteries.

Years ago there was a company, Best UPS, that built their machines with fully online internal ferro resonant transformers. I was aware of this even though they were pretty expensive. The ferro resonant xfrmr was always online and would swap to battery as needed. Ride through just from the ferro resonant line conditioner could be 1/2 sec.

They were about $900 for a PC sized unit back then. I came across a used reseller who had truckloads of them from some insurance company take outs. I cleaned out his remaining inventory for $75. each.

I changed the batteries and sent them back out to friends and family, but have been slowly getting them back as they stop using them. I probably have two or three in the basement and one under the computer workstation desk that makes no noise because it's not plugged in. I gave up on changing the batteries but I am keeping them because of the ferro resonant technology, hard to find today. Ferro resonant will take a nearby lightning strike and not go to battery.

They're going to get another life in service one day but just not today.

I was looking at the Best product line some years ago. Waited too long, and then they went belly up. I think their model line was "Fortress". I now use the Cyberpower product (1500VA). I've had to replace the batteries once, so far. My units us dual 12V 7A-hr batteries. The SLA batteries have a normal useful life of 3-5 years, less if they are drained down a lot, like you might in Florida. They are only meant to go about 15 minutes or so with my level of equipment, but depending, I can get 45 minutes. I use them for my own computer and the entertainment centers in the living room and master bedroom.