Having a hard time estimating labor hours

[nhfire77]

I am having a hard time getting to a solid man hour estimate for a job. It's a nursing/assisted living home, adding door holders to the tennants unit doors. There are 35 units per floor, two floors. There is a dropped ceiling on the first floor, solid ceiling with an open attic, fairly easy to traverse in. The building is probably 200' front to back.

The holders will be surface mount. Wiring method is 14/2 FPL. (non plenum spaces).

I am thinking 30 min/holder just to get the cable in place, and 30 min to install holder and magnet.

This does not take into account set up, break down and the panel and power supply wiring.

It would be two men working together.

Any thoughts?

 

[krisinjersey]

Hope they're good.

Hope they're good.

Last door holder/closer I installed took almost an hour to get right, and that building was brand new. After 2 I stopped to make some jigs to try and make the install more smooth. If you are surface mounting these you're going to have to snake all the drops in and the labor for drilling into the walls top plate. Then you have to think about all your firestopping. Is this place vacant or are you going to have to address tenant schedules? The longer I go the more variables I think of. I don't think an hour per unit is enough.

 

[nhfire77]

Last door holder/closer I installed took almost an hour to get right, and that building was brand new. After 2 I stopped to make some jigs to try and make the install more smooth. If you are surface mounting these you're going to have to snake all the drops in and the labor for drilling into the walls top plate. Then you have to think about all your firestopping. Is this place vacant or are you going to have to address tenant schedules? The longer I go the more variables I think of. I don't think an hour per unit is enough.

Good points. It's all open construction, very little firemstopping. But the jig idea is great. What did you use as a template?

 

[iwire]

Is it part of the job scope for you to provide the mounting for the box

If so what is the plan?

Not only does it have to be able to deal with someone yanking the door closed the mag holder often becomes the default door stop when people through the door open hard.

We generally have excluded the wood blocking needed in the wall so carpenters would go ahead of use and install suitable wood for us to secure the boxes too and then they had to do the patching.

You do not want to be going back for the next year fixing boxes that have pulled out.

 

[nhfire77]

Is it part of the job scope for you to provide the mounting for the box

If so what is the plan?

Not only does it have to be able to deal with someone yanking the door closed the mag holder often becomes the default door stop when people through the door open hard.

We generally have excluded the wood blocking needed in the wall so carpenters would go ahead of use and install suitable wood for us to secure the boxes too and then they had to do the patching.

You do not want to be going back for the next year fixing boxes that have pulled out.

Great point. The reason they are being installed is that the tenants are propping the doors open, which are fire doors.

We are providing the surface mount back box, it comes with the door holder. It is essentially a single gang WP box, there are two mounting holes already drilled in them (GE DH24120C).

This is existing construction, the thought was to use toggle bolts to anchor them to the drywall.

Bob, I agree that if they are slammed repeatedly it could be a problem. Most of the tennants are independent seniors, not too much abuse potential. However, I still need to address that before we take the job.

Anyone have suggestions/personal experience they could share??

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Great point. The reason they are being installed is that the tenants are propping the doors open, which are fire doors.

We are providing the surface mount back box, it comes with the door holder. It is essentially a single gang WP box, there are two mounting holes already drilled in them (GE DH24120C).

This is existing construction, the thought was to use toggle bolts to anchor them to the drywall.

Bob, I agree that if they are slammed repeatedly it could be a problem. Most of the tennants are independent seniors, not too much abuse potential. However, I still need to address that before we take the job.

Anyone have suggestions/personal experience they could share??

BIG RED FLAG, fire doors. The last ones we did at Westminster Canterbury in Richmond had to be tested and coordinated with fire department. VERY time consuming.

 

[nhfire77]

BIG RED FLAG, fire doors. The last ones we did at Westminster Canterbury in Richmond had to be tested and coordinated with fire department. VERY time consuming.

I spoke to the Fire Dept. They just want to do a walk through test of the system. Its a conventional system, full mag release with alarm, nothing special. Even if that takes half a day, I am fine with that, and will plan for it.

Is that what you meant?

 

[mcclary's electrical]

I spoke to the Fire Dept. They just want to do a walk through test of the system. Its a conventional system, full mag release with alarm, nothing special. Even if that takes half a day, I am fine with that, and will plan for it.

Is that what you meant?

Yes, but this was a large building, so coordinating it was a nightmare with tenants, and a huge amount of foot traffic. It ate up at least 40 man hours

 

[CopperTone]

I would figure 3.0 man hours per door for pricing. The first ones may take a bit longer but once you get a system down, you will fly through them. If this is a competitive bid them maybe shave off .4 hr for repetition.

I would also be concerned about using a surface mount box with toggles into sheetrock. Do you really want to be responsible for fixing when they pull out of the wall within the first year? I would get the installation method approved first to avoid the responsibility of repairing. Let them know exactly how you intend on doing it and get that method approved first. Let them know of the possibility of them pulling out.
Your method probably would be fine but a nightmare if you had to go back and repair sheetrock

then add all your man hours for set up, break down and the panel and power supply wiring

 

[nhfire77]

I've never done a waiver for an install method.m I have a feeling they are not interested in paying for blocking to be installed, so I agree I need to clear that with them.

Anyone have experience in writing up such waiver, or do you think just spelling it out in the contract would suffice?

 

[nhfire77]

Yes, but this was a large building, so coordinating it was a nightmare with tenants, and a huge amount of foot traffic. It ate up at least 40 man hours

Yea that sounds like an issue, this is one company that owns the whole place. You can see all the doors from 3 or 4 places inside. I will be careful to work out the testing procedures in advance to minimize my time on site and their disruption.

 

[CopperTone]

I've never done a waiver for an install method.m I have a feeling they are not interested in paying for blocking to be installed, so I agree I need to clear that with them.

Anyone have experience in writing up such waiver, or do you think just spelling it out in the contract would suffice?

First I would have a conversation with the owner about the mounting methods and voice your concerns, then give them a price for the 2 different installation methods, third - if they choose the cheaper method then document on the contract what you are and are not responsible for - spell it out clearly so there is no mistake.

Someone once told me this "killem with paper" on a bid - meaning, give them so much information that you will appear to genuinely care about their project and have thoroughly thought it out.

 

[krisinjersey]

Inspection

Inspection

I had a fire inspector take 2 Days to do the door closers. 40 doors and he had us pull a pull station and he timed the time from release of the magnet to the door latching. The door guy was ready to kill him after 4. If it was too slow, adjust the closer and do it over. Reset the system, pull the pull station, time the door, adjust the closer. Type that 40 times and see how long you should add for testing. And he was completely within his rights to do it, so we couldn't really complain. Yes Mr. Inspector, No Mr. Inspector, Thank you for the awesome fire test that took 4 DAYS Mr. Inspector. At least I know I didn't miss anything.

Toggles in sheet rock with FS boxes is a bad idea. FS boxes are cast, fire doors are solid, and the device mounting plates are usually pressed in. When that takes a shot it's gonna come apart, or go through the wall. You at the very least should think about those round floor mount door stops in conjunction, or something like that to save your install.

As for the contract, you have to stand by the install regardless of the back door you build in. If you give yourself an out, and a bunch break, and you don't fix them because you told them they would break, and they don't get them fixed before the fire inspector makes his annual visit, every person who asks the owner about it is going to hear you getting thrown under the bus not about the warnings you gave. Not to mention this is a life safety device. I get it that we have to protect ourselves with the contract, but you have to embrace what the job is accomplishing beyond the bottom line. The last thing you would want is to get dragged into court and your professionalism called into question because this system caused some ones grandma to die. You won't win that fight regardless or the contract.

 

[nhfire77]

I believe there are door stoppers in the floor already. So crushing on the way in shouldn't be an issue. Pulling out.... Well I'm going to demo my idea and then offer adding blocking as a solution.

I don't believe they have enough inspectors to take four days to inspect such a small addition. The doors already have closers. Why would the speed at which the door closes matter? (the current closers will remain untouched. I guess I should call out that we will not be responsible for any door closer issues.)

 

[nhfire77]

Opinions on this idea

Opinions on this idea

Toggler brand anchors that have a pull out rating of 576 lb. (out of 1/2" drywall, the walls are 5/8") Working rating of 1/4, which is 144lb.

The door holders are rated at 25 lb of holding force. Would you agree under a shock load it would be twice the force, so say 50lb.

Then take a safety factor of 3 so 50x3= 150 lb worse case scenario.

Of course there would be two anchors, I know that doesn't double the rating but would spread it out better.

I am trying to rationalize what would work so if we don't add blocking, I have done my due diligence.

What do you all think?

 

[iwire]

What do you all think?

I would not do the job if they expected me to only toggles these to the walls.

IMO it is a guaranteed looser after you go back a number of times to fix loose boxes and IMO they will loosen up.

At the least use 'Hilti Togglers'

as these are stronger and use a smaller hole into the drywall than normal 'toggles' drill the holes do not punch them and I would install liquid nail or at least adhesive caulking on the back side of the boxes. ......... I still think they would loosen up. I assume that many of the doors will be shut at least once a day.

 

[nhfire77]

I would not do the job if they expected me to only toggles these to the walls.

IMO it is a guaranteed looser after you go back a number of times to fix loose boxes and IMO they will loosen up.

At the least use 'Hilti Togglers'

as these are stronger and use a smaller hole into the drywall than normal 'toggles' drill the holes do not punch them and I would install liquid nail or at least adhesive caulking on the back side of the boxes. ......... I still think they would loosen up. I assume that many of the doors will be shut at least once a day.

I agree, that's the plan. I know they will eventually get loose. I am planning on discussing this with the facilities people before we proceed.

I was also thinking we could use the extension rods and mount them a little different so that it might make and break a bit different?

Any other thoughts???

 

[krisinjersey]

576 Pounds?

576 Pounds?

I know that I can pull a toggle through 1/2" sheetrock by hand, and I'm no where near strong enough to exert that kind of power. Give someone some real leverage with the door and you will have a problem. I would hate to hear this job become a recurring nightmare for you. At the same time I don't want you to lose the job over this, and have someone less scrupulous sheetrock screw the boxes up and not care.

 

[USMC1302]

Don't know what their budget is, but without blocking, maybe even with, I'd be concerned about maintenance. Could they consider a replacement door closer with the mag hold-open? Can be pricey, but mounted to the head of the door frame, they might be more successful.

 

[nhfire77]

I don't know what their budget is either, but I was told we had the lowest bid, the bid is one year old and I am going back out Monday to confirm the numbers, it was padded pretty good so the price won't go out much.

Please check out this link regarding the numbers I used for the pull out strength, let me know what you think.


http://www.toggler.com/pdf/toggle.pdf