Head scratching service call

[brantmacga]

I don't know how to explain this in a short manner, but I'll try.


Service call for tripping breaker and partial power.

I traced the tripping CB back to a switch box in the living room, and disconnected the incoming power to that box. POCO came out for the partial power issue and found a recent gas line installation had resulted in a cut in the lateral. While the POCO was replacing that lateral, the bulbs in a chandelier started fading on and off.


Here's what I have so far;

House is approx 20 years old, built for an electrical contractor and wired by his company. The living room has 22 switches. Almost everything in the house has a 3-way and many 4-ways.

The ceilings are vaulted and there is no direct access to the cables for a visual trace.

Many fixtures are wired with a single bulb on its own switch and the rest of the bulbs light by another switch.

A little under 2k feet and there are at least 100 switches.



I found a traveler on a 3-way connected to the tripping CB has a short somewhere, but have yet to identify what that switch controls. As you can imagine, its a process of removing every device and fixture and ohming out what goes where.



Now, the cable I disconnected to this switch box came out of a fluorescent light in the laundry room; I have attic access there. The fixture is being used as a JB. Once I disconnected that cable, the laundry room light started working again. Since disconnecting the 3-way traveler with the short, it no longer works, and I have 120v on the neutral of the disconnected cable. The chandelier also has a loose neutral; I have 120v w/ no bulbs in; install a bulb and it drops to less than 5v.

I cannot understand how disconnecting that traveler started this snowball.

I have checked continuity on almost every other 3-way I could find and have yet to find the other end of it. It may be safe to assume that this traveler is broken completely into and is grounding out on the bare wire in the cable.

The only thing I haven't got to yet is grounding the other traveler and trying to find it elsewhere. We ran out of time and I have them rescheduled for Wednesday.


Anyone have an idea for some other starting points or something to look for. I know I'll find it; just looking for something to reduce time.

thanks,
b

 

[Cow]

My only advice, is it sounds like you desperately need a circuit tracer. It seems like it'd pay for itself on this job alone.

 

[S'mise]

You could try the old extension cord trick as a refrence to check hot and neut wires. Sometimes the problem is actually at the fixture itself.

 

[mivey]

Are you using a meter or a meter/load combo to eliminate ghost voltages?

 

[Karl H]

Under 2k and at least a 100 switches? :grin::grin::grin:

 

[mivey]

Now, the cable I disconnected to this switch box came out of a fluorescent light in the laundry room; I have attic access there. The fixture is being used as a JB. Once I disconnected that cable, the laundry room light started working again. So you removed the short and the breaker quit tripping? Or is the breaker tripping and light not working two separate incidents?.

Since disconnecting the 3-way traveler with the short, it no longer works, Meaning a breaker trips or you have zero voltage? Are you sure you have not dislodged a connection in the same box? Is the traveler beyond the disconnected cable? If so, I see no connection with the laundry light.

and I have 120v on the neutral of the disconnected cable. The chandelier also has a loose neutral; I have 120v w/ no bulbs in; install a bulb and it drops to less than 5v.

I'm thinking you are saying the feed goes from the laundry light to the living room. The living room had a shorted traveler. When you killed the feed to the living room, the laundry light worked. When you disconnected the traveler on the killed living room the laundry light quit working. The killed living room circuit has 120 volts on the neutral until you load it. Is that it?

I cannot understand how disconnecting that traveler started this snowball. It may help to draw it out. You could sketch in some scenarios for the other end of the switch.

As others have said, use an extension cord and/or circuit tracer.

 

[growler]

While the POCO was replacing that lateral, the bulbs in a chandelier started fading on and off.

Darn, I would have expected the bulbs to go completely off during a service lateral change. I mean they really should turn the main breaker off for this type of work.

 

[growler]

The living room has 22 switches. Almost everything in the house has a 3-way and many 4-ways.

Many fixtures are wired with a single bulb on its own switch and the rest of the bulbs light by another switch.

A little under 2k feet and there are at least 100 switches.

I worked on a house in Woodstock, GA that was wired like that about 10 years ago. They would have 4 ganged switches that were stacked on the wall, one group of switches at about 4 ft and another at about 4' 10". That was about the most ridiculous mess I have ever seen.


When you find a switch that you have no idea what it controls don't forget about the flood lights. For some reason some contractors put a switch at the front and back door but also in the master bedroom for the outside lights. It's not really a bad idea but a lot of people will never think of it. Or maybe it's just a switched receptacle, even with fifty lights switched seperately some think they still need a few switched receptacles.

 

[220/221]

A little under 2k feet and there are at least 100 switches.

Gah!!

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Good luck. I hate untangling this kind of unothodox mess.

 

[wireguru]

I would have liked to have seen this house done with a touch plate system :grin:

 

[mivey]

Gah!!

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Good luck. I hate untangling this kind of unothodox mess.

Mess? Put all the switches in the correct orientation and a secret treasure map will be projected onto the living room wall (you will have to reconnect the traveler 1st).

 

[LarryFine]

Since disconnecting the 3-way traveler with the short, it no longer works, and I have 120v on the neutral of the disconnected cable. The chandelier also has a loose neutral; I have 120v w/ no bulbs in; install a bulb and it drops to less than 5v.

I cannot understand how disconnecting that traveler started this snowball.

I have checked continuity on almost every other 3-way I could find and have yet to find the other end of it. It may be safe to assume that this traveler is broken completely into and is grounding out on the bare wire in the cable.

It's possible that someone mis-wired a 3-way switch in the past. Remember that not every white wire is (or should be) a grounded conductor.

 

[mjf]

first thought

first thought

It's possible that someone mis-wired a 3-way switch in the past. Remember that not every white wire is (or should be) a grounded conductor.

Ask the HO which luminaire ,lamp, or switch they replaced just before this problem occurred.
It has amazed me how many times the HO fails to mention these things. (possibly due to embarrasment)....(and then I give them the old "I wouldn't be able to do your occupation very well" .... and sometimes they even call me before they try it themselves the next time!!)

 

[George B.]

3-Way mess

3-Way mess

Did you question the home owner if this all worked before? How about asking if ANY WORK at all was done in the home.Even hanging a picture with long nails.This happened to one home I went to. You have to be an NCIS agent and question the heck out of the owner until they confess. When you pull the nail out of the bears foot let us all know. Good Luck

 

[LarryFine]

You have to be an NCIS agent and question the heck out of the owner until they confess.

Or, be a forensics expert and discover the truth despite what you're told.