Health Care Facility - School Nurse

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bob99digi

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Is a school nurse's office required to follow 517?

I've read several of the other health care facility threads, and read article 517. I'm assuming that it will have to follow 517 based on the inclusion of "nursing" in the definition of "health care facility." I just don't recall MC cable being used in the school nurse's exam room on a past project.

I just wanted to get other opinions. Thanks.
 
I think that you are correct, a school nurse's office would fall under the definition of a health care facility.

Chris
 
bob99digi said:
Is a school nurse's office required to follow 517?

I've read several of the other health care facility threads, and read article 517. I'm assuming that it will have to follow 517 based on the inclusion of "nursing" in the definition of "health care facility." I just don't recall MC cable being used in the school nurse's exam room on a past project.

I just wanted to get other opinions. Thanks.
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Do you have an emergency source of power (517.25) to the nurses office?

In my opinion, the NEC should not be used to define building code and occupancy issues. The NEC should be used to properly wire a location only after the building code has defined it (in this case taking into account NFPA 99 and 101 for a "health care facility" per 517.1).
 
raider1 said:
I think that you are correct, a school nurse's office would fall under the definition of a health care facility.
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raider1 said:
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I disagree, Chris.

Let?s not confuse the ?conversational English? word ?Nurse? with the NEC phrase ?nursing care.? A school nurse does not provide ?nursing care.? The function of a school nurse is to decide whether the school child needs to leave the school and seek medical care at a hospital or doctor?s office. A school nurse will not draw blood or give injections or apply stitches. Their ?care? is limited to checking vital signs, checking for symptoms, and dispensing nothing more significant than aspirin.

This is absolutely not a 517 situation.
 
charlie b said:
I disagree, Chris.

Let?s not confuse the ?conversational English? word ?Nurse? with the NEC phrase ?nursing care.? A school nurse does not provide ?nursing care.? The function of a school nurse is to decide whether the school child needs to leave the school and seek medical care at a hospital or doctor?s office. A school nurse will not draw blood or give injections or apply stitches. Their ?care? is limited to checking vital signs, checking for symptoms, and dispensing nothing more significant than aspirin.

This is absolutely not a 517 situation.
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I agree with Charlie.
Even though I have not been in a school nurses office/room lately. Who knows what they do today with so many technology changes.
Based on my memory, this is not an examining room, but could be termed as a holding room until further information is gathered to determine the childs fate.
(Fate)- is he/she faking it :wink:
 
charlie b said:

I disagree, Chris.

Let?s not confuse the ?conversational English? word ?Nurse? with the NEC phrase ?nursing care.? A school nurse does not provide ?nursing care.? The function of a school nurse is to decide whether the school child needs to leave the school and seek medical care at a hospital or doctor?s office. A school nurse will not draw blood or give injections or apply stitches. Their ?care? is limited to checking vital signs, checking for symptoms, and dispensing nothing more significant than aspirin.

This is absolutely not a 517 situation.
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Please humor me, and define what constitutes "nursing care" in NEC speak. I am not trying to be difficult, but where do we draw the line?

For the record I don't believe that the requirements of 517 should necessarly apply to a school nurse's office, but the definition of Health care facility, includes portions of buildings that provide nursing care.

As I have said in another thread, sometimes the more I read the NEC less I know.

How are we to decide to what extent the nurse's dutys must be to, constitute "nursing care" as defined in Article 517.

Chris
 
jim dungar said:
Do you have an emergency source of power (517.25) to the nurses office?

In my opinion, the NEC should not be used to define building code and occupancy issues. The NEC should be used to properly wire a location only after the building code has defined it (in this case taking into account NFPA 99 and 101 for a "health care facility" per 517.1).
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no, no emergency power to the nurse's office.

I used to think 517 didn't apply to a school's nurse's room. I think my problem is compounded by the fact that the back room in the nurse's suite is labeled the "exam room".

As far as the phrase "nursing care", NEC doesn't define nursing care, so how can we assume that what the school nurse does is or isn't in fact nursing care?

Also, "patient care", specifically "general care areas" are defined as "examining rooms..... and other such areas where the patient will come in contact with ordinary appliances such as nurse call system, electrical beds, examining lamps, telephone, and entertainment devices."

Based on that, it doesn't seem like general care is much at all. Seems like a school nurse that looks at a kid, takes a kids temperature, and decides he needs to go home is being "examined". Telephone and entertainment devices? How in the world does that tie into health care.
 
raider1 said:
Please humor me, and define what constitutes "nursing care" in NEC speak. I am not trying to be difficult, but where do we draw the line?
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I can not say for certain. But I would say that ?checking pulse and measuring blood pressure? are on opposite sides of that line from ?drawing blood and giving injections.?
 
charlie b said:

I can not say for certain. But I would say that ?checking pulse and measuring blood pressure? are on opposite sides of that line from ?drawing blood and giving injections.?
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Yes, but "checking pulse and measuring blood pressure" would still be part of being examined. The definition of Patient care area includes any portion of a health care facility wherein patients are intended to be examined or treated.

As pointed out by bob99digi, the definition of General care areas includes areas in which it is intended that the patient come in contact with ordinary appliances such as a nurse call system, electrical beds, examinimg lamps, telephone, and entertainment devices. So if the nurse examines a child in the room, wouldn't that room be a General care area?

Just curious,

Chris
 
I don't think a school nurses area is health care either.

I doubt there are any electrical medical appliances there (unless they are battery powered).

And although the standard electronics (telephone, television, entertainment) would be in that room, the students would not be using them or coming into contact with them while they are being treated or examined.

I think the basic use for the nurses area is to give kids their Rittilin (sp?).

Steve
 
raider1 said:
Yes, but "checking pulse and measuring blood pressure" would still be part of being examined. The definition of Patient care area includes any portion of a health care facility wherein patients are intended to be examined or treated.
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Once again, you are using a word in one language as though it meant the same in another language. "Examined" (in NEC speak) is not the same as "Examined" (in common English). I can exam the offerings in a restaurant menu, and that doesn't cause the restaurant to fall under 517.

If you read the definition of "Patient Care Area" again, you will see that it means nothing if you are not in a health care facility in the first place. A school is not a health care facility; they are brain care facilities.
 
charlie b said:
Once again, you are using a word in one language as though it meant the same in another language. "Examined" (in NEC speak) is not the same as "Examined" (in common English). I can exam the offerings in a restaurant menu, and that doesn't cause the restaurant to fall under 517.

If you read the definition of "Patient Care Area" again, you will see that it means nothing if you are not in a health care facility in the first place. A school is not a health care facility; they are brain care facilities.
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Your argument is logical, but then how would you classifiy a doctors office in a commercial building? It is a health care facility within a structure that serves other purpose.

How about a State Human Services facility where free immunisation is given and no other health care is performed? Neither of these are listed under the exception. It seems like that 517 has some gaps, isn't it. Do you expect to have full emergency backup power available in a general practicioners office? How about a dentist's office? Can they really finish your root-canal?:roll:

It seems like they attempt to segregate what elvel of backup is needed in each type of facility, but then this distinction seem to disapear.
 
it is still a portion of the building used for nursing, just did a plan review for a school alteration that the architect plans showed 1 exam room in the nurses office
 
A school is not a health care facility; they are brain care facilities.
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Correct, but the schools nurse's exam room could be. Again the definition of Health care facility includes portions of buildings where in nursing care is provided.

I think it would be a strech to call a nurse's room in a school a health care facility, but when you read the words as written in the definition, I can see where it could be construed as such.

Chris
 
Health Care Facility-school Nurse

Health Care Facility-school Nurse

charlie b said:

I can not say for certain. But I would say that ?checking pulse and measuring blood pressure? are on opposite sides of that line from ?drawing blood and giving injections.?
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How does treating a bloody knee or scalp differ from drawing blood? There is no doubt that first aide is administered.
 
If the appropiate AHJ does not require the area of the facitlity to meet the provisions of NFPA 99 "Standard for Health Care Facilities", I do not see how NEC 517 would be applicable.

The FPN after 517.10(B) suggests going to NFPA 101 "Life Safety Code" for more information.

If other enforcement authorities do not conside the area to be for "patient care", why should those who use the NEC?
 
romeo said:
How does treating a bloody knee or scalp differ from drawing blood? There is no doubt that first aide is administered.
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If treatment like first aid is part of the justification, then every area of every facility that has a first aid kit should also be wired per 517.
 
charlie b said:

I disagree, Chris.

Let?s not confuse the ?conversational English? word ?Nurse? with the NEC phrase ?nursing care.? A school nurse does not provide ?nursing care.? The function of a school nurse is to decide whether the school child needs to leave the school and seek medical care at a hospital or doctor?s office. A school nurse will not draw blood or give injections or apply stitches. Their ?care? is limited to checking vital signs, checking for symptoms, and dispensing nothing more significant than aspirin.

This is absolutely not a 517 situation.
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I agree this is not covered in 517 but I also disagree with what they give out, with them being able to give condoms without parental notice what else are they doing..so maybe there is some validity to the arguments being made..I am going to have to read on this later on..I have meet couple of school nurses that I would like to have their help in inspecting their examination rooms ;) :roll:
 
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