Heat Pump wire correction

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asphalt

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Steilacoom, WA
I got a correction yesterday, not my first but I don't get many. :angel:

This is an outdoor heat pump. Nameplate state MCA 18.2. Max fuse or breaker 30. I pulled 12-2 romex to the outdoor fused disconnect. 30A 2-pole in the panel. 30A fuses at the disconnect.

Correction: "Min. circuit required is 18.2 amps #12 only good for 16 amps at 80%. Need #10 awg circuit."

I have always gone strictly off the nameplate and was unaware the the 80% rule applied. Did I get this terribly wrong or is my inspector misunderstanding nameplate rating?
 
I got a correction yesterday, not my first but I don't get many. :angel:

This is an outdoor heat pump. Nameplate state MCA 18.2. Max fuse or breaker 30. I pulled 12-2 romex to the outdoor fused disconnect. 30A 2-pole in the panel. 30A fuses at the disconnect.

Correction: "Min. circuit required is 18.2 amps #12 only good for 16 amps at 80%. Need #10 awg circuit."

I have always gone strictly off the nameplate and was unaware the the 80% rule applied. Did I get this terribly wrong or is my inspector misunderstanding nameplate rating?

He needs to look at table 310.16
75 degree table #12 is good for 25-30 amps. besides 80% is already factored in.
You are right, he is wrong.
 
agree, you can view some of the related Code such as those in 440 Part IV and 440.4. All adjustments have been addressed in listing MCA on the nameplate.
 
I got a correction yesterday, not my first but I don't get many. :angel:

This is an outdoor heat pump. Nameplate state MCA 18.2. Max fuse or breaker 30. I pulled 12-2 romex to the outdoor fused disconnect. 30A 2-pole in the panel. 30A fuses at the disconnect.

Correction: "Min. circuit required is 18.2 amps #12 only good for 16 amps at 80%. Need #10 awg circuit."

I have always gone strictly off the nameplate and was unaware the the 80% rule applied. Did I get this terribly wrong or is my inspector misunderstanding nameplate rating?

Outdoors is by definition a wet location. Romex is NOT allowed. You should use UF.
 
He needs to look at table 310.16
75 degree table #12 is good for 25-30 amps. besides 80% is already factored in.
You are right, he is wrong.

I'm looking at Art. 440 parts III and IV and I don't see where it says you can use #12 for over 20 amps. Am I not seeing it? I don't even understand how the OP can get away with putting the #12 romex on a 30 amp breaker.

Is it 440.31 ?
The provisions of these articles shall not apply to integral
conductors of motors, to motor controllers and the like,
or to conductors that form an integral part of approved
equipment.

I thought nm-b had to always use the 60 degree column
 
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If you were wiring a house that had a 3r main panel mounted outside you would use uf for all the home runs?

Nope, conduit(s) and THWN.

The areas in a 3R cabinet that allow K/Os are wet. You will note in the design of a 3R cabinet with devices, that all K/Os (not counting the water resistant hub) are below any connections. The area above the K/O is probably "damp".

I hate UF.
 
I'm looking at Art. 440 parts III and IV and I don't see where it says you can use #12 for over 20 amps. Am I not seeing it? I don't even understand how the OP can get away with putting the #12 romex on a 30 amp breaker.

I don't see anything in Art 440 that says you can't use #12 for over 20 amps.

The only requirement for not using #12 over 20Amps is in 240.4(D), but that section says unless specifically allowed in 240.4(G). Art. 440 is a specific allowance in 240.4(G).
 
The problem as I see it, is you installed a fused disconnect at the unit. This makes the run from the panel to the disconnect a feeder. Starting with 240.4(G) which sends us to art. 440 parts III and VI, I see both of those sections show the branch circuit requirements with no mention of feeder OCPD sizing. Since the branch circuit in your case is from the fused disco to the unit, I don't see how you can oversize the feeder OCPD rating to above the ampacity of #12, which would be 20 amps in this case.

To correct this, I would replace the fused disconnect with a nonfused, which would now create a branch circuit from the panel all the way to the unit. The 30 amp breaker would now be legal.
 
The problem as I see it, is you installed a fused disconnect at the unit. This makes the run from the panel to the disconnect a feeder. Starting with 240.4(G) which sends us to art. 440 parts III and VI, I see both of those sections show the branch circuit requirements with no mention of feeder OCPD sizing. Since the branch circuit in your case is from the fused disco to the unit, I don't see how you can oversize the feeder OCPD rating to above the ampacity of #12, which would be 20 amps in this case.

To correct this, I would replace the fused disconnect with a nonfused, which would now create a branch circuit from the panel all the way to the unit. The 30 amp breaker would now be legal.

The feeder would fall under Art 430. The mca and mocp requirements would be the same for the feeder as for the branch circuit.
 
If you were wiring a house that had a 3r main panel mounted outside you would use uf for all the home runs?

UL White book AALZ

A Type 3, 3X, 3S, 3SX, 4, 4X, 6 or 6P enclosure may be marked ??Raintight??
A Type 3R or 3RX enclosure may be marked ??Rainproof??
For equipment designated ??Raintight,?? testing designed to simulate exposure to a beating rain will not result in entrance of water. For equipment designated ??Rainproof,?? testing designed to simulate exposure to a beating rain will not interfere with the operation of the apparatus or result in wetting of live parts and wiring within the enclosure.

I always expect box connectors for cables and conduits to leak, especially the standard NM clamp connector.
 
The problem as I see it, is you installed a fused disconnect at the unit. This makes the run from the panel to the disconnect a feeder. Starting with 240.4(G) which sends us to art. 440 parts III and VI, I see both of those sections show the branch circuit requirements with no mention of feeder OCPD sizing. Since the branch circuit in your case is from the fused disco to the unit, I don't see how you can oversize the feeder OCPD rating to above the ampacity of #12, which would be 20 amps in this case.

To correct this, I would replace the fused disconnect with a nonfused, which would now create a branch circuit from the panel all the way to the unit. The 30 amp breaker would now be legal.

I'm sorry if I'm not understanding this...but your saying I can install a 12-2 romex to a non-fused disconnect and have a 30 amp breaker in the main panel? I can use this on a heat pump that says minimum breaker 30 amp?
 
I'm sorry if I'm not understanding this...but your saying I can install a 12-2 romex to a non-fused disconnect and have a 30 amp breaker in the main panel? I can use this on a heat pump that says minimum breaker 30 amp?

You can use #12 to either a fused or a non-fused disconnect with a 30A breaker in the panel, per the unit nameplate.

(The heat pump says a MAXIMUM 30 amp breaker, not a minimum.)
 
You can use #12 to either a fused or a non-fused disconnect with a 30A breaker in the panel, per the unit nameplate.

(The heat pump says a MAXIMUM 30 amp breaker, not a minimum.)

most heat pumps I wire have a minimum and a maximum breaker size. Almost all of them say minimum breaker 20 amp and the maximum breaker 30 amp. I sometimes run into ones that say minimum 25 amps and maximum 40 amps. This would be okay for a 12-2?
 
Actually, what you are more likely to see is minimum circuit ampacity, which will size the wire for you, and maximum overcurrent protection, which will size the breaker.
You can use a smaller breaker, all the way down to minimum circuit amps, but that would be asking for nuisance trips.
 
The feeder would fall under Art 430. The mca and mocp requirements would be the same for the feeder as for the branch circuit.

You can use #12 to either a fused or a non-fused disconnect with a 30A breaker in the panel, per the unit nameplate.

(The heat pump says a MAXIMUM 30 amp breaker, not a minimum.)

Yep, it looks like art. 430 shot my theory down pretty quick!!

Never bothered to actually look it up but the inspectors here require the conductors to be sized according to the OCPD if the disconnect is fused. The same reason given by Cow.
They also said that's why some nameplates say only "fused" for the max Max OCPD and others say max "fuse or breaker". So if the disconnect is fused, then only the conductors from the disconnect to the HVAC can be sized per the MCA on the nameplate.
If the disconnect is unfused, you can size the conductors per the MCA all the way from the panel to the disc and unit.

That's just what we are told. It never dawned on me to question it since it made sense to me.
 
Actually, what you are more likely to see is minimum circuit ampacity, which will size the wire for you, and maximum overcurrent protection, which will size the breaker.
You can use a smaller breaker, all the way down to minimum circuit amps, but that would be asking for nuisance trips.


So I can only use 12-2 for a heat pump that has a MCA under 20 amps? But I can put the max breaker size in the panel? It didn't make sense to me why qcroanoke said to use the 75 degree table. I didn't see a way around using anything but the 60 degree table for NM wire.
 
I'm looking at Art. 440 parts III and IV and I don't see where it says you can use #12 for over 20 amps. Am I not seeing it? I don't even understand how the OP can get away with putting the #12 romex on a 30 amp breaker.

Is it 440.31 ?
The provisions of these articles shall not apply to integral
conductors of motors, to motor controllers and the like,
or to conductors that form an integral part of approved
equipment.

I thought nm-b had to always use the 60 degree column

I'm not going to get into the NM usage as we all should know NM is not allowed in a wet location and yes it is required to be sized at the 60?c column of table 310.16.

What I would like to discuss is what we protect conductors from and what methods are allowed by the NEC.

First there are two things we protect conductors from and these are two very separate and different requirements that we use to protect conductors.

First one is overcurrent.

Overcurrent is long term and can be quite a few minutes if just over the rating of the conductor, most are used to over current being provided at the supply end of the circuit by the breaker or fuses that supply a conductor, this is always true when you have a circuit supplying an unknown amount of load such as receptacles or branch circuits in a house or other, since we can't control what people might plug in or connect to this type of branch circuit we make sure the conductors are protected at the supply end.

But there are cases where the overcurrent protection is allowed to be at the load end and is just as safe as long as more loads are not likely to be added, the three most common times we will see this is: taps as we see in 240.21: HVAC as in 440: and motors: 430 Also if we look at table 240.4(G) we will see other places where the NEC allows end of circuit over current protection.

Now the second thing we protect conductors from is short circuit and ground fault.
Short circuit and ground fault protection is always at the supply end of a circuit and always has to be, a conductor can be protected from SCGF by OCPD many times the conductors rating because the available fault current in most circuits will always be in the instantaneous region of the trip curve of most all breakers and fuses with instantaneous trip, usually within 5 cycles,
the only time this can be a problem is if the circuit is too long and the resistance of the circuit limits the fault current to a level out of the IT of the breaker curve this is why we must pay attention to how long a circuit is run when we chose the conductor rating and the SCGF protection for that conductor.

Now if we look are the requirements in 240.4(D) we will see that it allows us to use 240.4(E) or (G) for small conductors instead of the normal 15,20,30 amp ratings for small conductors (14-10awg) also 240.4(G) tells us to use the articles in table 240.4(G) for the applications listed in that table for conductor protection, most of these articles will also direct us to use table 310.16 for the conductor Ampacity instead of the Ampacity listed in 240.4(D) for small conductors.

With all that said, if we look at 440 for Air-conditioning and refrigerating equipment, part III will tell us what we must do for SCGF protection (440.21-) you will find out that in most cases that this is the max circuit protection that we find on the label on the equipment.

For overload protection we will have to look at part IV (440.31-) we will see that like above we will chose the conductors based upon the minimum circuit size on the label, again this is the end of the circuit overload protection I mention above, the overload is provided by the overload protection built inside of the compressor.

As far as the 125% this is always provided in the minimum circuit size because the manufacture has already included it by UL requirements.

Heres the commentary from the 2011 NEC hand book on this:

Branch circuits for listed air-conditioning and refrigeration
equipment that have a nameplate marked with the branch circuit
conductor size and branch-circuit short-circuit protective
device size are not required to have the branch-circuit
conductors sized in accordance with 440.33. The testing
laboratory standard includes the 25 percent increase for the
largest motor or compressor in the group plus the other non motor
or non compressor load; therefore, the actual nameplate
full-load amperes for the complete assembly can be
used to size the branch-circuit conductors
.

So if the air-conditioning equipment has a label that gives you the minimum circuit size you use this for sizing the conductors, and the max is to size the OCPD for SCGF.

It's a very common saying for AC equipment you wire for the minimum and breaker for the max.

Also 440.31 directs us to article 310 for the sizing of the conductors and we would use table 310.16 for this in most applications, again as 240.4(D) stated that this article will over ride the small conductor requirements of 240.4(D) as 440 is in the list of 240.4(G)

I hope this helps with a little better understanding of why we see smaller conductors being protected by larger OCPD's they are still being protected, just not in a way we are use to, in this case they are protected by the overloads built in each compressor and fan motor in the air-condition equipment, if it is listed then go by the label on it.
 
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