Help! Fire Marshal is being difficult...

[rr]

We have designed a large two story Police Facility. The Fire Marshal has stated that he thinks the Fire Alarm design is "overkill" and he wanted to remove some smoke and heat detectors.

After some research, I agreed that some detectors could be removed and still provide adequate coverage of detection. Now he wants to remove more detectors along with signaling devices. As he is the AHJ, he is allowed to do this. However, I don't feel comfortable with his design. Therefore, I have asked that he sign a letter stating that our company does not agree with his position and that the design is based on his authority.

He has refused to sign the letter and is insisting that we remove more detectors and signaling devices. We have provided him with multiple NFPA 72 codes, but he states that the building is not a "high rise" and the codes do not apply.

I think the guy is being unreasonable. Any opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks...

 

[boater bill]

Why is the fire marshall wanting to VE the building? I thought that fire marshall's prime directive was saving lives no matter the cost. If a few extra horn/stobes and detectors make the building EXCEED the minimum code requirements, then he should welcome it with open arms.

I have NEVER had a fire marchall reduce coverage, only increase it.

Holy Cow thats a wierd one.

 

[ITO]

With all due respect asking the AJH to sign a letter insisting that you remove FA devices is ?being difficult?. Maybe in California its different but around here we submit a FA drawing to the Fire Marsha for review, and they redline the drawing accordingly, stamp it and return it either approved nor not; there is your signed letter.

If the guy is verbally telling you to remove the devices and re-submit a drawing which puts all the liability on you then yes he is being difficult but you still have options.

Simply redraw the plan, and re-submit it with rev clouds and a letter stating as per your instructions the following changes have been made, although we do not feel it is correct we are complying with your directive as the AJH... Respectfully RR. Save a copy of the letter and all your documents.

Just my two cents, but every argument I have had with the AJH has cost me money and time.

 

[bphgravity]

There has got to be more to this story...

What part of this are you not telling us?

 

[rr]

There has got to be more to this story...

What part of this are you not telling us?

Nope. It's the real deal. I even have the City Engineer on my side. The last meeting turned into a shouting match between the two after the Fire Marshal called my design "poor" and "overkill". As we all know, this never accomplishes anything.

It's a strange situation. All Fire Marshal comments I've had in the past resulted in devices being ADDED, not removed. As Boater Bill said above, it seems like he wants to VE more than provide good protection. And I refuse to put my stamp on a drawing that I view as inadequate.

My only guess is that he wants to look good in the City's eyes by saving them money.

 

[donny baker]

It might be that previous reviews of over engineered systems corresponded to a large number of false alarms received at those locations.

 

[Mr. Bill]

Since when is NFPA 72 limited to high rises? Would IBC or NFPA 101 be applicable?

Let's say the Fire Marshall is right. Codes are minimum standards. If an Architect decided to use a 90-minute rated wall when the Code calls for a 60-minute wall because he's concerned about an area then so what. The Fire Marshall can't force them to change the design to a 60-minute rated wall.

You might casually mention to the City Engineer that the Fire Fighters' Union might be interested in knowing what the Fire Marshall is doing.

If you'd like to remain clean, then I like what ITO suggested. Resubmit with noted changes and reason for changes. Plan review might disagree with the Fire Marshall.

 

[ITO]

"large two story Police Facility"

There wouldn't happen to be detention facilities here would there?

 

[rr]

"large two story Police Facility"

There wouldn't happen to be detention facilities here would there?

Yes. About 5 or 6 temporary holding facilities. "Temporary" meaning only a few hours of holding until they transport the folks to the County dentention center.

 

[Mr. Bill]

If you ever want to see excessive smoke detectors, stop by the New Milwaukee Art Museum. They have a couple corridors there with about 100 smoke detectors. I think they did it because of the depth of the concrete arches. In between each arch are two detectors.

 

[Dave_PE]

If you ever want to see excessive smoke detectors, stop by the New Milwaukee Art Museum. They have a couple corridors there with about 100 smoke detectors. I think they did it because of the depth of the concrete arches. In between each arch are two detectors.

Sounds like an application for projected beam type smoke detectors...?

 

[benaround]

robbie,

I have to wonder why you would question a guy who has fought fires, put

his life on the line, and has gobbs more knowledge first hand about fires and

fire alarm systems, and also is the AHJ to not just do what the AHJ is asking.

As long as you keep all the stuff you did, and then draw what is required by

the AHJ, you have a paper trail right to his door. Any way Good Luck!!

 

[e57]

Not an expert in this at all, but: (Non-code issues sound like more of his problem.)

• Maybe there is a certain quantity that will put an additional burden on him or his dept.
• He's trying to save the city some money, or someone has told him to do so...
• Is he old, and your hair isn't gray enough - I've had that happen...
• You didn't call him "Sir"...
• He doesn't want to be there for the prisoners rioting???

 

[Nick]

Put yourself on the stand after a fire where a bunch of people were killed. You are the design professional and it is your stamp. If the prosecuting attorney asks you why you provided an inadequate design do you really want your only defence to be because the Fire Marshall said so? I see possible financial exposure at a minimum. Just because he accepted it doesn't leave you of the hook. Stick to your guns and make sure it is at least to the letter of the applicable code.