Help identify this #6 ga "cloth" wiring bundle?

brycenesbitt

Senior Member
Location
United States
A City inspector is asking for "more information" on this particular wire.
Anyone recognize it? 1960's #6 stranded, with what seems to be a fabric and tar sheathing. 3 wire bundle, protected by 50A fuses.

The writing is super clear, but fades out before it gets to the juicy details:
PXL_20250224_193135444.jpg
 
What's the question? Looks like standard old 60° C NM cable. You would need to see the actual conductors to confirm that they're thermoplastic.
 
What juicy details do you need.

The important bit is front and center: type NM cable, probably without a separate ground wire. This wire has a 60C temperature rating, and is probably just fine for ongoing use except where overheated at terminations.
 
What juicy details do you need.
The important bit is front and center: type NM cable, probably without a separate ground wire. This wire has a 60C temperature rating, and is probably just fine for ongoing use except where overheated at terminations.
Ah. Complicated.
The inspector wants me to install a 60A breaker on that, is why.
His argument is that the wire distance is fairly short, and I can use the temperature charts to prove out a 60A breaker.

1740443964655.png

Exactly why is complicated

Existing condition:
* 50A main fuses upstream, good condition
* 50A subpanel in the closet, in good condition, but FPE Stab-Lok.
* 1960's construction: gas heat, three light fixtures and 7 receptacles per one bedroom apartment.

Insurance company
* FPE is bad: insurance cancelled.

AHJ Field Inspector Says
* Can't have it in the closet any more
* OK to reuse the 3 wire feed.
* But the subpanel has to be 60A per code (because it was replaced) unless I can prove the feed wire can't support 60A.

================================
The same inspector wants us to change the 12.1 kw electric ranges to 10 kwh ranges, because
he can't imagine why a 50A peak load range is safe on a 50A main, given other loads.
So his view is either we go to 40A ranges with a non-compliant 60A panel. OR go to a 60A panel on the existing cable pictured above.


In the end
we agreed that I'd research the wire type, temperature rating, and "do the calculations" as to the best that can be done with the existing 3 wire feed. Sigh.
 
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The inspector wants me to install a 60A breaker on that, is why.
It's a 55 amp conductor so next size up rule say 60 amp OCPD is okay with a 55 or less amp load.

The same inspector wants us to change the 12.1 kw electric ranges to 10 kwh ranges, because
he can't imagine why a 50A peak load range is safe on a 50A main, given other loads.
The branch circuit for a 12.1 kw range can be 40 amps so why would you need to change the range?
 
The branch circuit for a 12.1 kw range can be 40 amps so why would you need to change the range?
Why? The AHJ inspector is a contractor, not an electrician.
He counted load as 50+20+20 = 80A.

And Table 220.55 Demand Factors was a bit beyond him. I need to patiently explain
(it's 8kW per Table 220.55 or maybe 8.3 depending on how you round... do I have that right?)

--
(The outside main will remain at 50A (unchanged), so I don't really want to put an internal 60 breaker in.)
(Really my only question was if anyone had more information on the NM #6 wire of the era).
 
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(Really my only question was if anyone had more information on the NM #6 wire of the era)
The cable has thermoplastic conductors so given the fact that it's not rubber insulated with tinned copper the is nothing wrong with the cable conductors but it doesn't have an EGC from what's visible in the photo.
Why? The AHJ inspector is a contractor, not an electrician.
He counted load as 50+20+20 = 80A.
If that's the case then this person should not be "inspecting" anything without some re-education.
 
If that's the case then this person should not be "inspecting" anything without some re-education.
Ya get what you get with AHJ inspectors.
I don't want to see all this perfectly good cloth/tar NM-B pulled for no particularly good reason, so want to do what I can to respect the request for more information. It does appear to be typical for the area thermoplastic #6 copper stranded with a cloth/tar jacket, 3 conductor with no ground.

I'll make the argument that the 50A range circuits are harmless, because the ranges can't continuously draw 50.0A.
 
If I was inspecting, I would request a meggerohm test of the old cable. If I am reading the thread properly, this cable is for the range? Is the wiring method supplying the panel installed with an equipment ground means?
 
The way I read this, that is an existing feeder that feeds an apartment panel fed by a 50A breaker. Panel was replaced with a new 60A panel. I assume that neutral and ground is bonded in the "sub panel".

Questions are, can and should the 50A breaker be increased to 60A. I guess the inspector thinks that the FPE never tripped because it's FPE. Also, since the panel was replaced, can it remain in the closet?

-Hal
 
The way I read this, that is an existing feeder that feeds an apartment panel fed by a 50A breaker. Panel was replaced with a new 60A panel.
Absolutely not a reason. It could be a 200a panel, with or without a main breaker.

Only the supplying breaker size matters.

Questions are, can and should the 50A breaker be increased to 60A.
Can if the load is below the conductor rating; doesn't need to if the 50a breaker holds.

Also, since the panel was replaced, can it remain in the closet?
Around here, if you don't make any substantial changes, yes.
 
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