help me price a 60 foot 3 phase pipe run.

[bullheimer]

i am figuring $10/ft. this is only $600 which doesnt seem like enough for me. breakers are $100 so add that to it. =$700, but still, the run is on the ceiling and half of the run is above a drop ceiling. if i figure 5 hours at $75/hr its only $375, plus $75 wire, $70 pipe $10 fittings, $40 recept. $100 breaker, or $670. (those prices have no mark up. so with 25% on top of the material, = $370, 370+375 is $750. pretty much the same as the $10/ft thing, just doesnt seem like i will make enough profit to justify the day there. i have two runs to do i could do them in one day so i would make $750 for the day. i want to make at least $850 for ONE. which would be$1250 for the first one.

think $1250 for one run of 1" and $1000 for 1 run of 3/4" is gouging? (above materials were #8 wire and 1" emt.) that would be $2250 total for 3 30A three phase recepts.

what he wants is one room with a 30A twist to lock 3 phase, and another room with two 30 recepts.
can i just take one set of #8wires to a j-box to the room that wants two recepts and drop #10's down to the recepts? the ampacities on the equipment is @15A each. or would i have to install #6 (or bigger) to get 60A that could theoretically be hooked up to the two 30A recepts by somebody in the future? (the equipment comes with the 30A cord caps).

just as a sidebar, i can never figure out how this fusing thing applies to feeders with taps. i would be using a 50A breaker on the #6, so that means the #10 is protected by a 50A fuse, which ordinarily you can't do, so how is that okay when you are talking about taps, but not other kinds of wiring?

 

[me=mc pulled]

Taps

Taps

As far as your price you need to charge what you need to to make money.But I would go with the estimated price not the dream price that seems to be pulled out of the air.As far as the taps go those #10 wires will be protected from overload by the protective device they are supplying.Any ground fault or short will clear the 50a fuse.

 

[ritelec]

Did your time also include getting the materials, travel time and gas.

When you mentioned "doesn't seem like enough", "if" there's money to be made in this business, don't expect to get rich quick.



"Figuring out the tap rules"........ mind me asking, by chance, got a license, work permit and carry insurance for this work?

I'm no guru with this stuff so I understand questions come up, I'm just asking.

 

[ritelec]

Also as far as the tap rules. Conductors are to receive oc protection where they're supplied. Tap rules allow you to tap to a smaller gauge wire and install the oc further down the line. Tap rules may apply to your install, but I'm seeing a 50
amp circuit feeding 10's and 15 amp equipment.
Without getting to deep into it (your question) or opening the book, you may want to check.

 

[ritelec]

One more thing before I bow out.

Did you throw the "Dead Angelo Factor" into this number.

Angelo was several years older than me at the time. One day he walked into his bathroom and never walked back out. Died at 46 years old.

Doing some airport work at the time, he had me and someone else scope out a job. We asked "how do you even bid on something like this".
He said, how ever long you think it's going to take,.......double it.

I've found over the years how true this is. At times, what you think will take 2 hours takes 2 hours........at times what you think will take 2 hours takes 4 or 5. Holds true for the 1 day work taking 2 and a weeks work
taking a week and a 1/2 or 2.

Have fun.

 

[ActionDave]

I use the "Dead Angelo Factor" all the time. I didn't know it had a name.

 

[bullheimer]

i found an old price guide some local local flipped me once upon a time. i am playing with which page of it to use. "open wall" "closed wall" dont have the pricing i would expect. doesnt quite lay it out. but i am at about $1600 per run after taxes and permit. which sounds good to me. a base price of $600 (includes first 20ft) then 45ft times $10, plus $100 breaker, $50 recep, permit and tax. i have been thinking i could be lower than that but hell, this is a 2005 price guide so i will stick with it.

ritelec, i didn't just find this site on google. but your last post, that's me. probably even 3 times longer. i did a service change tuesday and showed up at the job without a single part i needed! my help, the most invaluable guy no question smarter than i am, got to figure out what we needed and we both thought the same way too. why you ask? because i am broke. the guy didn't give me a check till six the nite before and i had to wait for the bank to open to cash it and then buy stuff. what would normally take just me one day, took the two of us all day, what with me going to the bank, buying the permit while my bud started taking down the old service, then we both went to get the parts and took different ends of the job, me doing the bonding and grounding, the roof jack and mast supports and going to the store yet again. i think that was the funkiest day we had. was spozed to p down rain but didnt rain till we started cleaning up.

anyway, the tap thing is just one thing i havent been able to rationalize in my mind, why a small wire could go ANY distance unprotected, as in ovens and cooktops or other machines. when, if i put one piece of 14g romex on a 12g circuit, i have to run a 15A bkr, right? at one point i mostly did industrial, but i was not the guy in charge of those jobs, i remember some repair jobs finding taps in jboxes for machinery but i cant remember if they were plugged in or had discos. i am assuming you are talking about the fuse in the disco protecting the wire, but what about ovens and ranges? so discos there.

i got to fine tune some of this stuff because he wants bids for one pipe to have two ckts i was thinking taps possibly taps for that one, but actually that bigger wire would be more expensive than just running two full boats of 10ga. with the adjustment factors i will still be able to carry way more than 15A even at 125%.

what will blow is having to deal with the drop ceiling in some areas. i hate drop ceiling tiles and ladders in between the track. its pushin midnite i need to crash. i just want to be fair, but i want to pay my taxes, and i want to be lower than the next guys bid as well, as long as he's not working for wages. i can no longer say i will meet or beat anybody, i had a guy say he found someone to hook up their hot tub for $500 and i told them to hire him. could barely buy the parts for that!

 

[ritelec]

anyway, the tap thing is just one thing i havent been able to rationalize in my mind, why a small wire could go ANY distance unprotected, as in ovens and cooktops or other machines. when, if i put one piece of 14g romex on a 12g circuit, i have to run a 15A bkr, right?

Ovens, cooktops etc... are appliances ......you must feed them as per it's name name plate. Inside.....that's the manufacturer. READ through Article 240....that may help you.


14 awg on a 15 amp.......12 awg on a 20 amp........???? What I find screwy is a 12 awg can be on a 40 amp circuit feeding AC equipment (can't put my head around that one, but...)

Was also thinking about your job, yes I agree it may be better for you to run separate circuits rather than one and tapping. READ Article 240.

 

[bullheimer]

alright i will look at it some more. IF YOU INSIST!!!

the job is lost. i used my price guide as i said, and even tho it is a resi guide, apparently the 2005 resi union prices were still so astronomically high that the resi prices couldnt even compete with a non union commercial job.

it figured one ckt at @$1600 and the pipe with two boats figured $2000 so about $3600 all tolled. the customer asked for the bid on the spot, because he had someone else that could start it tonight (he wants it done after 4:30pm) so i just told him $3500. because the prices above include tax and permit. he then told me the other company bid it at $2500 so he was going to use them. The way i figure it is he went pretty much how i was thinking at the start of this thread: about 2 days at $75/hr is only $1200, if you add about $600 or $700 for material: just 10g wire and two $110 breakers as they had one on hand, that is how i would arrive at @$2500 (with tax and permit anyways). so it would have been about the same had i done that. and if i had, i feel like the customer would have gone with the other guy anyway, because he seemed alittle miffed that it took me so "long" to get back to him with my bid (2 days).

it is a gamble any time you put out a bid above hourly wages i will admit. i was hoping they would have gotten another bid from a union contractor but they didn't. they got a reasonable (to me) bid. not, what i would call working for wages, because $75 is shop time, but just going by the hour. which is obviously what i should have done too. the guys who kill me and themselves, are the ones we refer to as working for wages who are working for $20-25-30/hr.

oh well, i will just shrug my shoulders. got greedy, got shot up. can you imagine if i was actually a union contractor having to go by this price guide? i can't understand why i always see the union guys' shop vans out on the street.

mod you can close this thread.

 

[ritelec]

alright i will look at it some more. IF YOU INSIST!!!

not for me, for you.

the job is lost. i used my price guide as i said,

Sorry to hear that. People ask what to charge. One mans overhead and pay rate is different than another mans. You might want to sit down, figure out your expenses and figure what "your" rate should be. If you win the bid you can work
for that wage somewhat knowing that you can work for that wage and keep the doors open (and maybe make a profit). If you loose the job at your rate, then you know you couldn't have done it cheaper and would be better staying home
watching cartoons.

got greedy, got shot up.

It happens. Live and learn.

And you never know................maybe it was better not even getting involved with this guy.

Time to move on.........

Good Luck and All the Best.

Rich