Help understanding city ordinance - No 15A circuits allowed

[the_red]

Hello, I am not sure if this is the correct place to put this question, but it makes sense to me. My local city ordinance has the following rule:

"E. NEC Article 210.23(A). Exempt 15 ampere branch circuits from residential constructions."

What I have been told is that this means that no 15A circuits are allowed at all, no exceptions. I understand that the AHJ has the final say on things, but is it possible to fight something as stupid as this? The ordinance doesn't even make sense to me for what they are telling me it means. I would read the ordinance to mean that the rules set forth in Article 210.23(A) do not apply to (e.g. are exempt for) 15A circuits. Am I misinterpreting this?

Apparently the whole reasoning for no 15A circuits is that people were tripping breakers and shoving in 20A breakers to keep them from tripping. So basically the city created a new rule because people couldn't follow current rules.

I know it's really not that big of a deal and the majority of my circuits will be 20A, but it's hard to justify 12/3 wire and 20A breakers for LED lighting circuits and smoke detectors. Plus I already purchased and strung my 14/3 circuits and am a little bummed.

Thoughts? Is there any use fighting this, or since they are the AHJ they can pretty much do whatever they want?

 

[roger]

If the AHJ has made this ordinance in a formal process they can enforce it, if it is simply some lower level authority making up their own rules you should be able to fight it. It is stupid if they are really forbidding 15 amp circuits.

Roger

 

[jumper]

I have commercial specs saying min 20A for general purpose and lighting circuits, never saw a resi one though, let alone an amendment mandating it for resi. Interesting.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

NYC used to have a 20 amp minimum but not sure that is still the case.

 

[jumper]

NYC used to have a 20 amp minimum but not sure that is still the case.

Yeah, but since them people is crazy, I kinda ignore them.

 

[infinity]

NYC used to have a 20 amp minimum but not sure that is still the case.

I don't think that they ever had a 20 amp minimum, they did and still do have a minimum conductor size of #12. In fact until the adoption of the NEC a decade ago you could use only 15 amp general purpose circuits.

 

[Coppersmith]

I never use 15 amp circuits when wiring houses and they come out fine.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't think that they ever had a 20 amp minimum, they did and still do have a minimum conductor size of #12. In fact until the adoption of the NEC a decade ago you could use only 15 amp general purpose circuits.

That may be true -- I am going back 55 years when I used to work with my dad. 12 was the minimum so I assumed 20 amp circuits.... We didn't do much resi stuff except for service calls here and there.

 

[infinity]

I don't think that they ever had a 20 amp minimum, they did and still do have a minimum conductor size of #12. In fact until the adoption of the NEC a decade ago you could use only 15 amp general purpose circuits.

That may be true -- I am going back 55 years when I used to work with my dad. 12 was the minimum so I assumed 20 amp circuits.... We didn't do much resi stuff except for service calls here and there.

I think that's it.

Maybe my English isn't too good but does actually say that you cannot use a 15 amp circuit in residential? Since when would one use the word exempt to prohibit their use. Is sounds more like that section (A) does not apply to 15 amp circuits in residential.

E. NEC Article 210.23(A). Exempt 15 ampere branch circuits from residential constructions

 

[jumper]

I think that's it.

Maybe my English isn't too good but does actually say that you cannot use a 15 amp circuit in residential? Since when would one use the word exempt to prohibit their use. Is sounds more like that section (A) does not apply to 15 amp circuits in residential.

What does NYC code call for commercial general purpose circuits?

 

[infinity]

I don't think that they ever had a 20 amp minimum, they did and still do have a minimum conductor size of #12. In fact until the adoption of the NEC a decade ago you could use only 15 amp general purpose circuits.

What does NYC code call for commercial general purpose circuits?

15 or 20 amp although since you're required to use #12 conductors no one really uses 15 amp circuits anymore. The old NYC code allowed only 15 amp branch circuits with exceptions for things like bathrooms, kitchens, etc. or if you had commercial 277 volt lighting then a 20 amp circuit was required. Now it just basically what's in the NEC.

 

[charlie b]

Maybe my English isn't too good but does it actually say that you cannot use a 15 amp circuit in residential? Since when would one use the word exempt to prohibit their use. It sounds more like that section (A) does not apply to 15 amp circuits in residential.

I agree that the wording is poorly chosen. But I can only infer that forbidding 15 amp circuits in residential applications was their intent. No other connotation of the word "exempt" makes sense to me. The article in question says you can use either a 15 or a 20 amp circuit for lighting and other utilization equipment, as long as you conform to the load limits in the next two paragraphs. What aspect of that article would anyone infer is being said to no longer apply to residential? I can't get there.

 

[Craigv]

Hello, I am not sure if this is the correct place to put this question, but it makes sense to me. My local city ordinance has the following rule:

"E. NEC Article 210.23(A). Exempt 15 ampere branch circuits from residential constructions."

What I have been told is that this means that no 15A circuits are allowed at all, no exceptions. I understand that the AHJ has the final say on things, but is it possible to fight something as stupid as this? The ordinance doesn't even make sense to me for what they are telling me it means. I would read the ordinance to mean that the rules set forth in Article 210.23(A) do not apply to (e.g. are exempt for) 15A circuits. Am I misinterpreting this?

Apparently the whole reasoning for no 15A circuits is that people were tripping breakers and shoving in 20A breakers to keep them from tripping. So basically the city created a new rule because people couldn't follow current rules.

I know it's really not that big of a deal and the majority of my circuits will be 20A, but it's hard to justify 12/3 wire and 20A breakers for LED lighting circuits and smoke detectors. Plus I already purchased and strung my 14/3 circuits and am a little bummed.

Thoughts? Is there any use fighting this, or since they are the AHJ they can pretty much do whatever they want?

The wording is ridiculous and nonsensical. Replace "exempt" with its definition in that code article:

"Free from an obligation or liability imposed on others 15 ampere branch circuits from residential constructions."

Makes absolutely no sense, and a lawyer could successfully argue this against the AHJ. Is it worth going to that trouble? Your current losses are nothing compared with what that would cost. And all a win would mean is that the AHJ will pass a properly worded replacement faster than you can blink. The good news is that every job in that jurisdiction can earn you a tiny bit more money.

Yaaaaayyyyy....:roll:

 

[infinity]

E. NEC Article 210.23(A). Exempt 15 ampere branch circuits from residential constructions

210.23 Permissible Loads, Multiple-Outlet Branch Cir-
cuits. In no case shall the load exceed the branch-circuit
ampere rating. A branch circuit supplying two or more out-
lets or receptacles shall supply only the loads specified
according to its size as specified in 210.23(A) through (D)
and as summarized in 210.24 and Table 210.24.
(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or
20-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply
lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination
of both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).
(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment Not Fastened
in Place. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected
utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed
80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.
(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total
rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than
luminaires, shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-
circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-
connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or
both, are also supplied.

I keep coming back to the use of the word exempt which means that it does not need to comply with 210.23(A). This section has two requirements for branch circuits (A)(1) and (A)(2). IMO the very poorly worded amendment says that 15 amp circuits are exempt from those two requirements {(1) & (2)} in residential construction. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Craigv]

I keep coming back to the use of the word exempt which means that it does not need to comply with 210.23(A). This section has two requirements for branch circuits (A)(1) and (A)(2). IMO the very poorly worded amendment says that 15 amp circuits are exempt from those two requirements {(1) & (2)} in residential construction. Just my 2 cents.

Best guess is some yahoo thought it applied to (A) regarding the 15 amp branch circuits. Fail.

 

[romex jockey]

It hard to do up lighting circuits, 3-4gang boxes of 3W's ,and maintain fill requirments {314.16(B)&table}w/#12 , as to load(s) , the led revolution addressed it, kinda....~RJ~

 

[Buck Parrish]

I took this panel out of some city offices down town.
They said the heck with 15 or 20s. They used all 30 single poles with 12 gauge wire in their branch circuits.

 

[Craigv]

View attachment 21313

I took this panel out of some city offices down town.
They said the heck with 15 or 20s. They used all 30 single poles with 12 gauge wire in their branch circuits.

First thing that came to mind when reading the rationale of requiring all 20's was, "well, why stop there?"

 

[jumper]

I was bored so I looked up the amendment and just emailed the building dept for clarification.

 

[jap]

View attachment 21313

I took this panel out of some city offices down town.
They said the heck with 15 or 20s. They used all 30 single poles with 12 gauge wire in their branch circuits.

What's that 2p 40 hanging onto?

JAP>