He's Full of ....

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chris1971

chris1971

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We are doing a project (single family home) where the existing main electrical panel is going to become a sub panel do to an addition to the house. Panel won't be moving but it will be converted into a sub panel. Electrical inspector says that he considers all the existing branch circuits to be modified. He is requiring us to provide AFCI protection for any circuits that are required to be AFCI protected. He is citing 210.12(B) of the 2014 NEC. I say no as we did not modify the individual branch circuits only the feeder going to the sub panel. I called the electrical inspectors supervisor and they are discussing what to do.:roll::roll:
 
Let's say all those existing circuits were ran in the 1980's or earlier when it was commonplace to tie all neutrals together from different circuits...... What then, will you have to rewire the house because of all the afci's tripping due to shared neutrals.
 
Tell the inspector that I helped write that section and my substantiation was for panel changeouts. The CMP added the 6' part
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Tell the inspector that I helped write that section and my substantiation was for panel changeouts. The CMP added the 6' part
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:)


If the branch circuit wiring itself has not changed that shouldn't matter. The requirement is "where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended".

The inspector appears to be taking his theory of relativity a bit too far. :happyyes:
 
chris1971 said:
So, you agree with what I stated?
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As much as it pains me, Yes I agree with you...:lol:

Smart $ said:
:)


If the branch circuit wiring itself has not changed that shouldn't matter. The requirement is "where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended".

The inspector appears to be taking his theory of relativity a bit too far. :happyyes:
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Well it does matter because some inspector feel if you change the breaker or go from fuses to circuit breakers that you have modified the circuit. That is not the intent of this section.

Not sure how the inspector is seeing the branch circuit being modified other than there will be a feeder to it so the neutrals and grounds are moved(modified)???
 
Dennis Alwon said:
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Well it does matter because some inspector feel if you change the breaker or go from fuses to circuit breakers that you have modified the circuit. That is not the intent of this section.
...
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I believe we are saying the same thing.... :blink:
 
mopowr steve said:
Let's say all those existing circuits were ran in the 1980's or earlier when it was commonplace to tie all neutrals together from different circuits...... What then, will you have to rewire the house because of all the afci's tripping due to shared neutrals.
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When was this ever commonplace to tie all the neutrals together except at a panel buss bar?
 
Sierrasparky said:
When was this ever commonplace to tie all the neutrals together except at a panel buss bar?
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For example it was quite common if one would actually have different circuits meeting in a switch box (with multiple switches) and also would have neutrals to go along with those multiple circuits they would all wind up connected together. Instead of keeping them seperate per circuit. Therefore creating multiple neutral paths.

I believe this is one of the reasons for the allowance of installing afci's only if the circuit has been modified at which time this practice can be corrected or one could correct it if afci's are desired on older circuits.
 
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It may not be in the spirit of this forum to say it... but I will say it. Some people seem to have an AFCI fetish and will do anything to fulfill it. It would not surprise me if some group already has formed of AFCI die hard enthusiasts compromised of inspectors driven by the industry to get AFCIs into every single branch circuit in North America.
 
mbrooke said:
It may not be in the spirit of this forum to say it... but I will say it. Some people seem to have an AFCI fetish and will do anything to fulfill it. It would not surprise me if some group already has formed of AFCI die hard enthusiasts compromised of inspectors driven by the industry to get AFCIs into every single branch circuit in North America.
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:angel: ...honest mistake? :thumbsup:
 
chris1971 said:
We are doing a project (single family home) where the existing main electrical panel is going to become a sub panel do to an addition to the house. Panel won't be moving but it will be converted into a sub panel. Electrical inspector says that he considers all the existing branch circuits to be modified. He is requiring us to provide AFCI protection for any circuits that are required to be AFCI protected. He is citing 210.12(B) of the 2014 NEC. I say no as we did not modify the individual branch circuits only the feeder going to the sub panel. I called the electrical inspectors supervisor and they are discussing what to do.:roll::roll:
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So the only work done on the panel would be to separate grounded & equipment grounding conductors -- Are you replacing devices in the existing residence?
 
Inspectors are humans. EC's are humans. EE's are humans.
Mistakes will be made.
You don't know who taught that guy, what class he was in, whether the instructor (or video or commentary) was wrong or if he misinterpreted something. It sounds like resolution is pending. Just another day in the industry.
 
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