HID and LED fixtures on same circuit?

[rrc14]

Are there any issues associated with placing HID and LED light fixtures on the same circuit? The circuit conductors will be sized to adequately handle any voltage drop, just curious to see if anyone has encountered problems with both types of fixtures on the same circuit. Am I over analyzing this situation....

 

[iwire]

Am I over analyzing this situation....

Yes.

 

[Electric-Light]

Are there any issues associated with placing HID and LED light fixtures on the same circuit? The circuit conductors will be sized to adequately handle any voltage drop, just curious to see if anyone has encountered problems with both types of fixtures on the same circuit. Am I over analyzing this situation....

Possibly yes, especially if they're switched off together. You will often see a reverse polarity diode on the coil of DC relays driven directly from embedded controllers. The diode shorts out the recoil to prevent stored energy in coil from releasing into the controls when it is shut off. Many power surge events are created from within the facility and this is one such example. They would get quenched in the front-end components of LED ballast and cause an undue stress on the LED electronic ballast.

 

[iwire]

Possibly yes, especially if they're switched off together. You will often see a reverse polarity diode on the coil of DC relays driven directly from embedded controllers. The diode shorts out the recoil to prevent stored energy in coil from releasing into the controls when it is shut off. Many power surge events are created from within the facility and this is one such example. They would get quenched in the front-end components of LED ballast and cause an undue stress on the LED electronic ballast.

:roll:

 

[kwired]

They are already on the same service or feeder in many instances so any problem between the two doesn't necessarily disappear just because there is a branch level breaker between them.

 

[iwire]

They are already on the same service or feeder in many instances so any problem between the two doesn't necessarily disappear just because there is a branch level breaker between them.

Certainly that was what I was thinking as well.

I was also thinking the same thing applies to electronic ballasts for fluorescent lamps or electronic power supplies for LV lighting.

 

[Electric-Light]

Certainly that was what I was thinking as well.

I was also thinking the same thing applies to electronic ballasts for fluorescent lamps or electronic power supplies for LV lighting.

Yes, it does indeed. T8 ballasts failed left and right due to these issues back in the 1980s and early 1990s when these real life factors were not adequately considered.
If you put a T5 6-lamp ballast and parallel it up with 5 400W auto-transformer MH ballasts, I wouldn't be surprised if the ballast sees an undue surge exposure and fail prematurely.
Earlier designs as well as cheap electronic power supplies lead the path in premature failures.
Variable speed blower motors, VFD, electronic ballasts, computer power supplies, electronic ballasts.

When electronic ballasts first hit the market, they had a rush of failures due to their inabilities to deal with surge. Even today, they lack the resiliency of coil and core ballasts. You will find high wattage (175W and above lamps) in pot growing operations as they're generally situated where they're easy to service. GE commercialized electronic HID ballasts up to 400W, but they weren't on the market for long.

When motors or coil and core ballasts are put together on the load side of a switch with electronic power supplies, the kickback from when they're shut off don't have anywhere to go but the electronics.

 

[kwired]

Yes, it does indeed. T8 ballasts failed left and right due to these issues back in the 1980s and early 1990s when these real life factors were not adequately considered.
If you put a T5 6-lamp ballast and parallel it up with 5 400W auto-transformer MH ballasts, I wouldn't be surprised if the ballast sees an undue surge exposure and fail prematurely.
Earlier designs as well as cheap electronic power supplies lead the path in premature failures.
Variable speed blower motors, VFD, electronic ballasts, computer power supplies, electronic ballasts.

When electronic ballasts first hit the market, they had a rush of failures due to their inabilities to deal with surge. Even today, they lack the resiliency of coil and core ballasts. You will find high wattage (175W and above lamps) in pot growing operations as they're generally situated where they're easy to service. GE commercialized electronic HID ballasts up to 400W, but they weren't on the market for long.

When motors or coil and core ballasts are put together on the load side of a switch with electronic power supplies, the kickback from when they're shut off don't have anywhere to go but the electronics.

There is a difference between being on same service, feeder or branch circuit and having both load types on load side of a contact type control device. Yes that kickback possibly goes everywhere in the system if a further upstream switching device is opened - but the load end control device is usually the one that gets operated the most frequently.

 

[Electric-Light]

better explanation

better explanation

There is a difference between being on same service, feeder or branch circuit and having both load types on load side of a contact type control device. Yes that kickback possibly goes everywhere in the system if a further upstream switching device is opened - but the load end control device is usually the one that gets operated the most frequently.

Exactly.

The coil stores energy, but only does so with current flowing through it. When the current is interrupted, the stored energy comes bursting out across input terminals which is why switching off a coil makes a nice arc across the switch when it's shut off.

In the classroom:

Take a 12v/24v control transformer. Hold the bare leads with your hands, then connect across a D cell battery. Let the leads off the battery while still holding the wires bare leads with your hands. You will definitely feel a shock. That's the stored energy ricocheting. If you also have a light bulb in parallel, you won't feel or feel much less shock.

If the light bulb stayed paralleled with the coil the whole time, it will dampen the surge. If the coil is sufficiently large, the light bulb will flash brighter the moment the battery is disconnected.

If you leave the light bulb connected to the battery, but you isolate just the coil, you'll feel a fair level of shock, because the stored energy is released into you as a surge voltage that is far in excess of 1.5v dry cell with enough impulse current to trigger a feel.

Real life:
So, that impulse is actually damaging to electronic power supplies and if there's no sufficient mitigation measures built into them, it will erode every time it receives a surge and wear out. A big light bulb in parallel will do fine, but you can't have a big filament bulb in parallel burning off energy all the time. So, the kickback is quenched in the surge protective device (which wears away with each hit) or in the power supply's electronics.


My understanding of thread starter's context is that they're switched on the same SWD circuit breaker like this:

H = HID
L = LED with electronic power supply
(light switch)
|
H-H-H-H-L-H-H-H

HID ballasts are coils that produce kickbacks. The complex electronics used in Light Emitting Decoration apparatuses may not have the real life durability to handle the kickback in the long run and their engineering know hows is in the infancy compared to electronic fluorescent ballasts.

Use warranty contracts that do not allow surge related failure coverage dismissals unless the surge is such that non Light Emitting Decoration fixture are damaged (like a lightning strike that vaporizes motor windings) and put all the risk in writing on the energy retrofit sales dealer and do mind how long they've been in the business and their liquidity.

There's more to the game than kWh on sales reps crib sheet. Don't forget the incidental and consequential costs of babysitting LEDistic fragility related matters. Labor, scissor lift, disruption in production etc.

You can reasonably expect HID and lolLED to get switched together under lighting category compared to a 20 hp extruder and warehouse lights getting swtiched together on the light switch.

 

[iwire]

HID ballasts are coils that produce kickbacks.

Some are, some are not but your bias will cause you to ignore that.

Don't forget the incidental and consequential costs of babysitting LEDistic fragility related matters. Labor, scissor lift, disruption in production etc.

And this is different from any modern fluorescent ballasts in what way?


Funny how I am not seeing any more of a failure rate with LEDs power supplies than I do with Fluorescent ballasts.

But keep fighting LEDs, I am sure you will turn the tide anytime now.

 

[Electric-Light]

Some are, some are not but your bias will cause you to ignore that.

Most HID ballasts are coil and core. There are some low wattage (generally <100W) eHIDs, but they're in the minority.

And this is different from any modern fluorescent ballasts in what way?

They shouldn't, although lol LED ballasts are not standardized like fluorescent ballasts and they may not incorporate durability and reliability measures utilized in high quality fluorescent ballasts, such as R&D and sourcing expertise. If the driver is made by commercial products sector of Philips Advance, Sylvania, GE and such, I agree with you that they should be comparable.

Otherwise, I would strongly suspect lol LED power supplies may have the same level of design and quality as the Zhen Duong Xiong non CBA rated ballast used in a $8.99 fluorescent ShopLite.

Funny how I am not seeing any more of a failure rate with LEDs power supplies than I do with Fluorescent ballasts. But keep fighting LEDs, I am sure you will turn the tide anytime now.

How do you come to such a conclusion when they haven't been around long enough to conclude the long term durability? Also, a failed LED driver is more similar to a failed appliance board unless it is a standardized type as you need exact replacement. You may need exact replacement from the OEM.

 

[iwire]

How do you come to such a conclusion when they haven't been around long enough to conclude the long term durability?

Long term? Like current electronic ballasts have long term durability. :lol:


But you are the one that added long term to my statement.

My statement was based on the fact that the company I work for installs a great many fixtures of all types and we warranty for a year to five years. My position is in the service end and we replace a lot more flouresent ballasts than drivers.

Also, a failed LED driver is more similar to a failed appliance board unless it is a standardized type as you need exact replacement. You may need exact replacement from the OEM.

I agree with you there 100%. It is a pain for us who service these fixtures.

Again a problem typical of new technologies. It is actually a good thing that companies are trying different designs, as time goes on and patents expire things will settle down. Consumers will demand it and companies will fill the gap.

 

[Electric-Light]

Long term? Like current electronic ballasts have long term durability. :lol:

According to the LRC, Electronic ballasts have been commercially available since about 1988 and dominated 40% shipping volume in 1998. Today, they dominate the installation base of commercial and industrial fluorescent lighting systems, so electronic fluorescent ballasts have over 25 years of field track record. I agree that LED drivers designed by the leading lighting companies include the know hows gained from their field experience. How to design, how to tolerate the environment where they're used, component selection and so on.

But you are the one that added long term to my statement.
My statement was based on the fact that the company I work for installs a great many fixtures of all types and we warranty for a year to five years. My position is in the service end and we replace a lot more flouresent ballasts than drivers.

Five year warranty and just how many LED fixtures are out there with over five years of applied field experience? Fixtures from startups or purveyors that simply slap together imported parts are particular suspect. Is the five year warranty parts + labor? Does it include any clause for business interruption? Some state purchasing specs for LED roadway lighting includes costs incurred from road closures.

What you said is like telling me that you only know of 1 or 2 out of thousands cars your company sold needed to have the timing chain replaced on a model using a new engine introduced in 2014, therefore timing chain is reliable, when it shouldn't need service for 150,000 miles or 10 years.
What doe that tell me about how this particular part is not going to be the weak link after five years?

I agree with you there 100%. It is a pain for us who service these fixtures.

And the expenses involved must be included in cost of ownership. An exotic car will cost far more to service, but they provide a utility purpose, not merely perform the same as a mundane mass produced vehicles do at a slightly better mileage.

The cost to overnight a non-stock part or the interim solution that must be offered to the customer are risks that need to be managed and purchasing specifications should carefully be written to obligate the LED service and sales dealer to provide these services to avoid inconvenience and losses. Completely ignore the long term promises coming out of sales guy and focus on warranty and their ability to pay off warranty claims. Service contract and fitness of use warranty in this case is not something that is upsold. It is something the customer should outline in specs, then include in cost calculation.

Again a problem typical of new technologies. It is actually a good thing that companies are trying different designs, as time goes on and patents expire things will settle down. Consumers will demand it and companies will fill the gap.

Yeah, but what's the primary advantage used in LED sales pitch?
Usually, that they perform commodity functions at less utility cost, and sometimes totally unsupportable emotional benefit claims such as 'better QuuuWhalhetee light' without contextually appropriate supporting specifications.

 

[kwired]

What you said is like telling me that you only know of 1 or 2 out of thousands cars your company sold needed to have the timing chain replaced on a model using a new engine introduced in 2014, therefore timing chain is reliable, when it shouldn't need service for 150,000 miles or 10 years.
What doe that tell me about how this particular part is not going to be the weak link after five years?

It tells me that someone may try to sell me an extended warranty in about five years:happyyes:

I have a 2004 truck, I still get offers in the mail for extended warranty on this vehicle. I have had offers for extended warranties in the mail many times for home appliances - even from the manufacturer or someone that appears to be somewhat closely related to the manufacturer anyway. I generally don't fill out registration cards when getting something new like that but sometimes the wife does - all it does IMO is increase the junk that arrives in the mail.

 

[Electric-Light]

It tells me that someone may try to sell me an extended warranty in about five years:happyyes:

I have a 2004 truck, I still get offers in the mail for extended warranty on this vehicle. I have had offers for extended warranties in the mail many times for home appliances - even from the manufacturer or someone that appears to be somewhat closely related to the manufacturer anyway. I generally don't fill out registration cards when getting something new like that but sometimes the wife does - all it does IMO is increase the junk that arrives in the mail.

I'm not talking about later purchase. I mean hospital like process where in the event manufacturer denies the claim citing (power surge, etc) and there's a gap in the sales man's claim of suitability vs manufacturer's idea of appropriate use, the selling dealer is to foot the repair bills in full. I believe LED products are high risk, especially when you do not know how the manufacturer of the product will handle the warranty and in-house warranty is only good if the dealer is in business which is like a video poker if the dealer is a sales oriented Energy Savings Retrofitting company.

Haggle with the LED sales vendor to include the assumption of warranty records keeping, administrative burdens of claims administration as well as including an extended warranty through a well established third party vendor in the initial agreed upon price to make the warranty somewhat consistent with the sales pitch on money savings in case they go out of business. You need to dot all the i's, cross all the ts followed by triple sealing and pressure testing all the loop holes LED sales company may use to weasel out if they fail to meet specifications that may cause your facilities to lose money or face administrative burdens from having to deal with a third party.

I forgot to say, retainage for the first year. Who do you think is going to be paying the cost for the facility's office staff to deal with the manufacturer otherwise?

Everything above is a non-issue if the LED products don't fail or fall outside of agreed upon specifications (and it's the buyer's ask the proper questions and negotiate appropriate, objective terms ), but designed so that majority of cost of correcting problems and administrative burdens fall on the dealer, not the buyer. Don't let the sales guy sweet talk you into how reliable LEDs are. Ask questions, then, get him to agree to a contract that if they don't work out as expected for the duration of his expected savings claims calculations, they foot the bill for corrective actions.

 

[kwired]

I'm not talking about later purchase. I mean hospital like process where in the event manufacturer denies the claim citing (power surge, etc) and there's a gap in the sales man's claim of suitability vs manufacturer's idea of appropriate use, the selling dealer is to foot the repair bills in full. I believe LED products are high risk, especially when you do not know how the manufacturer of the product will handle the warranty and in-house warranty is only good if the dealer is in business which is like a video poker if the dealer is a sales oriented Energy Savings Retrofitting company.

Haggle with the LED sales vendor to include the assumption of warranty records keeping, administrative burdens of claims administration as well as including an extended warranty through a well established third party vendor in the initial agreed upon price to make the warranty somewhat consistent with the sales pitch on money savings in case they go out of business. You need to dot all the i's, cross all the ts followed by triple sealing and pressure testing all the loop holes LED sales company may use to weasel out if they fail to meet specifications that may cause your facilities to lose money or face administrative burdens from having to deal with a third party.

I forgot to say, retainage for the first year. Who do you think is going to be paying the cost for the facility's office staff to deal with the manufacturer otherwise?

Everything above is a non-issue if the LED products don't fail or fall outside of agreed upon specifications (and it's the buyer's ask the proper questions and negotiate appropriate, objective terms ), but designed so that majority of cost of correcting problems and administrative burdens fall on the dealer, not the buyer. Don't let the sales guy sweet talk you into how reliable LEDs are. Ask questions, then, get him to agree to a contract that if they don't work out as expected for the duration of his expected savings claims calculations, they foot the bill for corrective actions.

I have not been in any retrofits where we change out virtually every luminaire with an LED type, just an occasional LED luminaire here and there. If one fails and is still under manufacturer warranty - no problem -though I can't say I have encountered that either. LED replacement lamps that fit existing lampholders - again unless you have gone through and made a large scale replacement where almost every lamp has been replaced, one lost here or there often doesn't get any response from the customer requesting a warranty replacement or repair, but if you lose a large section then they see dollar signs and are going to try to get what they can.

I did have a shop building I wired on a farm that has T5 HO luminaires and is only 3-4 years old, and they recently lost all ballasts connected to one "phase". This was my first problem with these luminaire types, but they failed because of a power problem not because of something wrong with the ballasts. They had a melt down on the meter pole and after POCO fixed that problem they noticed these lights were not working. So customer doesn't want to try to claim warranty in that case because they obviously know there were power quality issues that caused the failure, but they possibly do try to make an insurance claim depending on what kind of coverages they have.

 

[Electric-Light]

I have not been in any retrofits where we change out virtually every luminaire with an LED type, just an occasional LED luminaire here and there. If one fails and is still under manufacturer warranty - no problem

Can you define the warranty included in that? Most are LIMITED warranty. Some are parts only warranty. Some LE Decoration warranties, like Lunera are like pro-rated tire warranties. Which portion of labor to replace a high bay, including the cost to arrange a scissor lift will be covered???
Here, HID was mentioned, so I am assuming places where 175 and 400W high-bays are used where :lol: ED failures cause production loss and labor expenses.

Ask plenty of questions to Energy Sales Vendor and don't consider all "5 year warranty" comparable. You may want to read through this thoroughly and the ballast portion of warranty should be used as the negotiation leverage against LEDs:

https://assets.sylvania.com/assets/Documents/ECS280.d6134f09-3cf1-4c16-b79d-e565cfd83c9d.pdf

I did have a shop building I wired on a farm that has T5 HO luminaires and is only 3-4 years old, and they recently lost all ballasts connected to one "phase". This was my first problem with these luminaire types, but they failed because of a power problem not because of something wrong with the ballasts. They had a melt down on the meter pole and after POCO fixed that problem they noticed these lights were not working. So customer doesn't want to try to claim warranty in that case because they obviously know there were power quality issues that caused the failure, but they possibly do try to make an insurance claim depending on what kind of coverages they have.

That was a wise judgment. A 277v ballast will not tolerate a neutral lift unless it's an oddball one that is designed for 277-480v. Test lab will find the cause of failure if they cut open a few. If you install 100 fixtures and claim warranty on ALL 100 ballasts, it will likely lead to a request for sample. They do this, because they want to know design weaknesses as well as deny BS claims.

The warranty includes terms allowing the manufacturer's reps to request lamps, ballasts and inspect the site.

Engineers don't always realize "reasonable and foreseeable" abuse and I would call this lack of design maturity and this is one of the hazards that that should be addressed with proper contract language so reasonable in lighting use.
Something that newb toy makers that make decorative Light making devices failed to account for is not necessary unforeseeable.

This is not saying that the manufacturer should take responsibility for running it into a brick wall, but there needs to be something that protects the purchaser from warranty denial from failures caused by bumps and small pot holes that existing HIDs consistently survive, but take out decoration light power supplies. When you accept the quote, give yourself enough time to read every word, or put it contingent on review of terms by your counsel, so you avoid agreeing to BS vendor terms like "determined at our full and sole discretion" that lets Mr. Slimey & Mrs. Dumas decide the fate of your warranty claims.

Again, none of the above really matters if things don't go foul. It just ensures that it's the LED Sales Vendor's rear that gets BBQ'd rather than the facility owner if and only when there are issues.

 

[kwired]

Can you define the warranty included in that? Most are LIMITED warranty. Some are parts only warranty. Some LE Decoration warranties, like Lunera are like pro-rated tire warranties. Which portion of labor to replace a high bay, including the cost to arrange a scissor lift will be covered???
Here, HID was mentioned, so I am assuming places where 175 and 400W high-bays are used where :lol: ED failures cause production loss and labor expenses.

Ask plenty of questions to Energy Sales Vendor and don't consider all "5 year warranty" comparable. You may want to read through this thoroughly and the ballast portion of warranty should be used as the negotiation leverage against LEDs:

https://assets.sylvania.com/assets/Documents/ECS280.d6134f09-3cf1-4c16-b79d-e565cfd83c9d.pdf




That was a wise judgment. A 277v ballast will not tolerate a neutral lift unless it's an oddball one that is designed for 277-480v. Test lab will find the cause of failure if they cut open a few. If you install 100 fixtures and claim warranty on ALL 100 ballasts, it will likely lead to a request for sample. They do this, because they want to know design weaknesses as well as deny BS claims.

The warranty includes terms allowing the manufacturer's reps to request lamps, ballasts and inspect the site.

Engineers don't always realize "reasonable and foreseeable" abuse and I would call this lack of design maturity and this is one of the hazards that that should be addressed with proper contract language so reasonable in lighting use.
Something that newb toy makers that make decorative Light making devices failed to account for is not necessary unforeseeable.

This is not saying that the manufacturer should take responsibility for running it into a brick wall, but there needs to be something that protects the purchaser from warranty denial from failures caused by bumps and small pot holes that existing HIDs consistently survive, but take out decoration light power supplies. When you accept the quote, give yourself enough time to read every word, or put it contingent on review of terms by your counsel, so you avoid agreeing to BS vendor terms like "determined at our full and sole discretion" that lets Mr. Slimey & Mrs. Dumas decide the fate of your warranty claims.

Again, none of the above really matters if things don't go foul. It just ensures that it's the LED Sales Vendor's rear that gets BBQ'd rather than the facility owner if and only when there are issues.

It was a 120/240 volt single phase service, ballasts were connected 120 volts. One pole in the meter socket melted down, I can only assume there was low voltage for some amount of time that got these lights (only 9 of them on that line that went down). All I know is after POCO replaced the metering equipment (they do that for most rural services in this area instead of the contractor) I was told those lights never came back on. Nothing else in the shop or the other buildings has been found to have any problems so far - has been a month or so since this happened now. Lights were likely on but I don't know if anyone was in there to notice any problems before they totally failed. They were still new enough there may have been some warranty - not sure exactly what, but neither I or the owner even mentioned any such thing as we both knew it was not any fault of design or manufacture that caused this failure.

 

[Electric-Light]

The level of discomfort tolerance varies significantly between designs ranging from repackaging of disposable CFL ballast into a different can to something that's very durable.

Examples of problems experienced by ballasts with design fails.

Relamping energized = poof (its reasonably expected to happen. . . )
blue or red to ground short = poof (wire accidentally pinched during service...)
leaving it energized for a day or two with no lamp= poof (harness became disconnected...)

Flipping the light switch on and off as fast as you can at normal line voltage = poof. (But, what do you think happens when the PoCo's ATS activates to try to burn out the squirrel? )

Having realistic, relevant explanation reduces the risk of affected :lol: ED vendor from protesting specifications whining that its pointless and unreasonable and causing electrically fragile LEDs from slipping through.