High Current and Low voltage on Motor

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castiel

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Good day everyone,

I have an issue on one of my projects. We are using ABB ACS 800 system. The client Mud Pumps (MP A and MP B) have the following issue: when they ran individually, everything is great. But when they run in pair, Mud Pump A takes more load than Mud Pump B. Also, MP B has high current but only 6 V. Does anybody have any input? Thank you
 
Good day everyone,

I have an issue on one of my projects. We are using ABB ACS 800 system. The client Mud Pumps (MP A and MP B) have the following issue: when they ran individually, everything is great. But when they run in pair, Mud Pump A takes more load than Mud Pump B. Also, MP B has high current but only 6 V. Does anybody have any input? Thank you


High current? Only 6V? Need more details....
 
High current? Only 6V? Need more details....

What kind of details do you need? The mud pump should run on 690 V. When it runs indiv (A or B) it gets enough voltage. Once we run it together we Mud Pump A takes on the load that MP B should take. MP B doesn't get enough voltage to even start. We trying to figure out what can be a problem
 
What kind of details do you need? The mud pump should run on 690 V. When it runs indiv (A or B) it gets enough voltage. Once we run it together we Mud Pump A takes on the load that MP B should take. MP B doesn't get enough voltage to even start. We trying to figure out what can be a problem
So maybe you meant that it got only 600V, not 6V? Six volts would probably not even make it him

Getting back to the question, the obvious place to look is at voltage drop in the connecting wiring along with differences between the two motors.
Does this happen only when you try to start both st the same time? Or when either one is already running when the other is turned on?
 
So maybe you meant that it got only 600V, not 6V? Six volts would probably not even make it him

Getting back to the question, the obvious place to look is at voltage drop in the connecting wiring along with differences between the two motors.
Does this happen only when you try to start both st the same time? Or when either one is already running when the other is turned on?

Correct. It does not even move. It does have 6 V but the voltage is so low that the motor doesn't even react.

It happens when we start them at the same time (simultaneously).
 
What kind of details do you need? The mud pump should run on 690 V. When it runs indiv (A or B) it gets enough voltage. Once we run it together we Mud Pump A takes on the load that MP B should take. MP B doesn't get enough voltage to even start. We trying to figure out what can be a problem

How about starting with:
The two have been running fine up till now. Suddenly this started happening.

Or, they have never worked right. This has been happening since startup.

Are the motors 30hp or 3000hp?
690V is not industry wide common. Are these standard design B induction motors?
Are they submersibles down a bore hole

(assumption - ABB ACS 800 system are VFDs)
Have you looked at the hydraulic issues?
Is one pump deadheading the other?
Are the pumps positive displacement?
What is the frequency on the one that is not starting?

ice
 
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The starting voltage drop from A is so high that the contactor for B does not even pull in.
The voltage of 6V is the result of neutral shift rather than solid power applied to B.
 
The starting voltage drop from A is so high that the contactor for B does not even pull in.
The voltage of 6V is the result of neutral shift rather than solid power applied to B.

If the contactor is not even pulling in then where is he measuring this 6v at? The line side of contactor?
 
ABB ACS800 are VFDs, yes. It is also unlikely that there are contactors on VFDs, unless maybe there is only one drive and two motors? That's not clear. Probably not though.

Assuming one drive per pump, no other circuit elements, then it's a real mystery. But you must understand the way drives can work, especially DTC (Direct Torque Control) drives like the ACS800. The output of the VFD can be set for a current limit setting. In order to accomplish that limitation of current in a circuit, the drive must alter the voltage and frequency being applied, regardless of what you are telling it to do. That's the only control it really has, it cannot control the actual current that the load demands unless it essentially changes the nature of the load, which in the case of a pump, means lower the amount of pumping it is doing by lowering the speed of the pump. But if the pump shaft is not turning, then the motor is in a Locked Rotor condition and the current will attempt to go to 600% of the FLC. Drive will stop that at whatever the current limit setting is, but that means driving the speed down, and that also results in driving the RMS voltage down as well. The result: high current, little voltage, also little speed, but you may not be able to see that.

If I had to guess as to why this is happening when it does NOT happen if only one pump is running, is that this is ultimately a mechanical problem. Many types of vertical pumps, including submersibles, have a "thrust bearing" arrangement to absorb the upward thrust created by the spinning motor and the lift that creates. But at the same time, it DEPENDS on the hydrodynamics of that lift in order to get off of the lower bearing, or sometimes there IS NO lower bearing at all, the liquid flowing is the lower bearing. If you have two pumps starting together, and one starts slightly faster than the other ad there is no means of back flow prevention, it's head pressure is forcing the lagging pump downward onto its bottom resting point, it never lifts off of it, never develops the lift into the thrust bearing and the rotor remains locked. Drive #2 then keeps dropping the speed to maintain the current limit, which exacerbates the problem and perpetuates it until the drive trips off line.

Solution? Back flow prevention on each pump output, no current limit, synchronized ramping of both drives together, some combination of the above.

Possibilities other than that, one pump is pumping backward. It can be hard to tell because there is flow either way, just more flow in one direction. But if that were the case, the problem would only happen in one direction, meaning A then B, not not B then A, at least I think so, it depends on a lot of other things.

If it IS just one VFD and two pumps and you are using contactors to select one or two, then it may be that one contactor is closing sooner, the direction is wrong, any nomber of other issues could be going on there. If that is the case, clear that up before we waste any more time on this.
 
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Thanks everyone for their input. The problem was actually the cabling in motor side. Also, after doing diagnosis I saw really high temp. So I assumed that it can IGBTs. Test those but they ran perfectly. So I concluded it was a mechanical issue. After client side inspected the mud pump, it ended up being cables. Client changed those and we did another diagnosis but this time everything went great. Thank you everyone for the input.
 
... when they ran individually, everything is great. ...
I don't see how this could possibly be true if it was the result of "bad cables". Either that report was false and nobody tested anything, or there was another serious mechanical problem that someone does not want to admit to, so they fixed it quietly and now are blaming it on the cables to deflect attention from their incompetence.

Either way if the problem is solved, it is solved.
 
I don't see how this could possibly be true if it was the result of "bad cables". Either that report was false and nobody tested anything, or there was another serious mechanical problem that someone does not want to admit to, so they fixed it quietly and now are blaming it on the cables to deflect attention from their incompetence.

Either way if the problem is solved, it is solved.
You left out, collect payment and declare victory.
 
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