Hiker lightning injury

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Sahib

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A hiker was hit by lightning and he survived. The web page below narrates the incident.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/25/hiker-hit-by-lightning-woke-up-with-blood-everywhere.html

In this regard I had a discussion with Dr. Mary Ann Cooper MD via email as follows.

Me: Your observation that many survive direct lightning strike may be due to the high frequency components of the lightning current flowing only along the skin surface of the victims.

Mary Ann: Yes: flashover as it is known.

Me:
The high frequency components of lightning travel along the skin of the victim in the form of a flash over as you stated. However, the low frequency components enter the body and exit to the ground via the lower limbs of the victim. In that case, the duration of lightning may decide the outcome-life or death in my opinion. Studies on the effect of magnitude and duration of LV current through a human body are well known. Any such study on lightning?


Mary Ann: I will refer you to Chris Andrews, MD, PhD, who modelled lightning effects as part of his dissertation, but who also sits on the IEC working committee for this and has written some materials for them recently about effects on the human body.He is an Australian who was in Chicago for the meeting two weeks ago and stayed with us a few days, as usual for his trips across the US.

It may also have to do with when the strike hits during the cardiac cycle as parts of it are more vulnerable to causing ventricular fibrillation, a nonfunctional rhythm where each muscle fiber is beating at a different frequency than the others, resulting in no flow, which deteriorates to asystole (flatline, no activity) and death.

Me:
As you noted, lightning may induce ventricular fibrillation in its victim. However, a defibrillator uses a current pulse (similar to lightning) of several thousand volts to revive a fibrillating heart patient! Again I think it has to do with the duration of passage of current through the victim's body that decides the outcome-life or death for the person involved.

Mary Ann: Perhaps it would be better for you to review the cardiac electrophysiology literature instead of speculating.


The discussion stands there as on today.
:)
 
It is an almost impossible task to do. Iam trying easier ways such as posting here and trying to tap into the collective wisdom here.:)

After almost 7 years on this forum, almost nothing would surprise me regarding the breadth of knowledge held by members here. That said, I am doubtful that there are any cardiac experts moonlighting as electricians in these here parts. You will have to do your own homework, I'm afraid.
 
I think the takeaway here is this: Don't get hit by lightning or else you might die.

You're welcome. :D
 
After almost 7 years on this forum, almost nothing would surprise me regarding the breadth of knowledge held by members here. That said, I am doubtful that there are any cardiac experts moonlighting as electricians in these here parts. You will have to do your own homework, I'm afraid.

hold on.... anything we don't have a hands on expert here for,
we can make up answers.... alternative facts, i think they are called.
 
I don't understand why the "expert" said that survival can be attributed to flashover and then later cites research saying that timing is important. It is an expert for Fox news, though. Alternative facts are probably given a lot of credit.
 
I don't understand why the "expert" said that survival can be attributed to flashover and then later cites research saying that timing is important. It is an expert for Fox news, though. Alternative facts are probably given a lot of credit.
Dr.Mary Ann Cooper, a recognized expert on lightning related injuries did not say flashover is the only cause for survival. Current entry into heart not at specific part of cardiac cycle ie timing, another cause. Another one cause is low current magnitude through heart, IMHO.
 
After almost 7 years on this forum, almost nothing would surprise me regarding the breadth of knowledge held by members here. That said, I am doubtful that there are any cardiac experts moonlighting as electricians in these here parts. You will have to do your own homework, I'm afraid.

Gotcha covered. I'm an "electrically related individual" and part of that has involved some electrophysiology - specifically defibrillators and other electro-medical devices. There is a LOT of background required to understand why this stuff works the way it does. There is no simple and self-contained explanation. Bottom line: timing of current pulses compared to heart activity is critical. For the same exact shock, a difference in timing of a tenth of a second may be the difference between fatality and no effect at all. Defibrillators these days contain built-in EKGs which read and process the patient's heart signals, automatically determining whether the rhythm is "shockable" (i.e. whether a shock is potentially helpful or not), and if so, the machine times the discharge to coincide properly with the movement of the heart muscle. In ventricular fibrillation, timing doesn't matter - but for many other situations it does. And when considering the effect of electric shock on a person with a normal heart rhythm, timing is critical. Duration and intensity certainly matter too, but one of the key differences between a random shock and intentional cardioversion is this synchronization to the heartbeat.

Waveform is another factor. Most cardioverter/defibrillators nowadays use a "biphasic" waveform - it's an asymmetrical single-cycle AC wave that's carefully shaped. First there's a pulse one direction, then a somewhat smaller pulse the other direction. Some machines can also produce a triphasic (+-+) or monophasic waveform on demand, or automatically depending on the patient's problem. These carefully shaped and timed pulses are rather different from a randomly-reversing lightning strike which is unpredictable.
 
This is (supposedly) the photo he shot with his phone at that exact moment. It seems to have caught the flash of the lightning. Very cool (considering that he survived...)
nintchdbpict000347890956.jpg

I couldn't link directly to it, but here's the source.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4318878/hiker-lightning-photo-survives/

But looking at that, I, as an experienced Sierra hiker, would have been running for cover looking at that sky and clouds. I've had lightning strike trees near me at those elevations, probably around 9,000ft in that area. Not at all safe...
 
This is (supposedly) the photo he shot with his phone at that exact moment. It seems to have caught the flash of the lightning. Very cool (considering that he survived...)
View attachment 18640

I couldn't link directly to it, but here's the source.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4318878/hiker-lightning-photo-survives/

But looking at that, I, as an experienced Sierra hiker, would have been running for cover looking at that sky and clouds. I've had lightning strike trees near me at those elevations, probably around 9,000ft in that area. Not at all safe...

I don't think that is a picture of a bolt of lightning. A friend of mine managed to get a picture of one three feet in front of him and the entire frame was orange and overexposed. The left side of the bolt looks way too straight, also, the shadows in the background are not indicative of a bright arc illuminating them from that position.
 
I meant to say the right side of the bolt is too straight. It's actually 'pixel perfect'.

I didn't say it was the "bolt", I said it appeared to be the flash. The perfect line of pixels is likely the result of the left-top-to-bottom-right scan pattern of the digital camera imaging system in the phone. The flash of the lightning was "frozen" in those scans because it was so brief.
 
Me:[/FONT][/COLOR]The high frequency components of lightning travel along the skin of the victim in the form of a flash over as you stated. However, the low frequency components enter the body and exit to the ground via the lower limbs of the victim. In that case, the duration of lightning may decide the outcome-life or death in my opinion. Studies on the effect of magnitude and duration of LV current through a human body are well known. Any such study on lightning?


Mary Ann: I will refer you to Chris Andrews, MD, PhD,

Translation: the Dr basically said Get Out of My ER (gomer) and referred you to a Pretty High and Deep.
 
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