Home inspection question

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growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
First off I don't pick on home inspectors as most do a fairly good job.


MY question is this. Do you think that a home inspector should have noticed the lack of a main breaker in a service panel? No exterior disconnect.

The panel is main lug, with about 26 total breakers and no overcurrent protection. The panel is cocked about 1" inch with the top being flush and the bottom hanging out of the wall a good deal. All knockouts punched and not sealed ( they must have thought they were for ventilation ) and no connectors used (none) and most of the double pole breakers the wrong size. This should have given a clue their might be a few things wrong. The whole thing is obvious hack work.

The only electrical fault noted was a frayed service cable going into meter.

The fact that the service cable runs through the attic unprotected would have been another clue and should have been written up because it's visable, wouldn't you think?
 
So you're out there on the frayed cable and found the rest of it?

There is plenty of graft in the HI industry.
Those people can be overly loyal to realtors and investors who give them repeat work.
 
mgookin said:
So you're out there on the frayed cable and found the rest of it?
Click to expand...


No I'm not sure why I was there other than the new owner wanted to know what it would take to bring things up to good working condition. Another contractors had pretty much told them the whole place needed to be rewired.

After doing a load calculation, the service is to small. They changed from all gas to electric except for the heat. After seeing the work that was done it would be hard to give a quote on anything less than a total rewire.

Another thing is they had a really bad roof system and needed a new roof but not before the mold set in. They may have the problem corrected and maybe not so I kind of lost interest other than ranting about the blind home inspector.


I naturally assumed he had pruchased the property without an inspection.
 
mgookin said:
So you're out there on the frayed cable and found the rest of it?

There is plenty of graft in the HI industry.
Those people can be overly loyal to realtors and investors who give them repeat work.
Click to expand...

my observation is that if you are a home inspector, and find enough wrong
to crater a sale, you may not get another call from that realtor.

when i bought this house, i looked it all over, and was good to go, knowing
that the pool heater was an insanely decrepit POS, but i was curious to see
what the "expert" had to say.

the pool heater got no mention. there was about $300 worth of "repairs" that
needed to be done. he noted there were no issues regarding the pool heater.

when you started the pool heater up, flames came out the firebox, and went
up the block wall about 4' or so. it was easy to notice, as there were black
burned marks all the way up to the top of the fence.

the FAU didn't work so well either, as the fiber duct work had been crushed
flat, and all the hot air (that wasn't in the inspectors report) went into the
attic.

the main thing he said was the water shut off valve on the front of the house
needed to be changed from a gate valve to a ball valve. $250.

around here, home inspectors mainly serve as a stop loss for realtors, and
homeowners, so the buyer can't claim bad faith or lack of due diligence.
 
growler said:
First off I don't pick on home inspectors as most do a fairly good job.


MY question is this. Do you think that a home inspector should have noticed the lack of a main breaker in a service panel? No exterior disconnect.

The panel is main lug, with about 26 total breakers and no overcurrent protection. The panel is cocked about 1" inch with the top being flush and the bottom hanging out of the wall a good deal. All knockouts punched and not sealed ( they must have thought they were for ventilation ) and no connectors used (none) and most of the double pole breakers the wrong size. This should have given a clue their might be a few things wrong. The whole thing is obvious hack work.

The only electrical fault noted was a frayed service cable going into meter.

The fact that the service cable runs through the attic unprotected would have been another clue and should have been written up because it's visable, wouldn't you think?
Click to expand...

Noticed, yes, since you dont have to remove the deadfront to see that. When did service panels require mains or a disco ahead of the panel? Perhaps he thought the install old enough to be grandfathered in?

The missing KO plugs, lack of appropriate cable connectors, wrong breaker sizes, etc. wouldnt be visible w/o removing the cover.

The service cable in the attic... well, I dont see a lot of inspectors spending much time in the attic this time of year.

Were you able to determine why the panel was cocked? Last panel change we did, the studs on the sides of the existing (smaller) panel were seriously twisted. We wound up using a few large prybars, a 4x4" block of wood, and a sledgehammer to coax the new panel in (sounds barbaric but we didnt so much as scratch the new panel)... perhaps your previous electrician had something similar but not the tools to get the panel flush.
 
JFletcher said:
Noticed, yes, since you dont have to remove the deadfront to see that. When did service panels require mains or a disco ahead of the panel? Perhaps he thought the install old enough to be grandfathered in?

The missing KO plugs, lack of appropriate cable connectors, wrong breaker sizes, etc. wouldnt be visible w/o removing the cover.

The service cable in the attic... well, I dont see a lot of inspectors spending much time in the attic this time of year.
Click to expand...


New panel and obvious that it was installed in last few months or weeks.

I have not seen a home inspection where they didn't remove panel cover to check for double taps.

He didn't need to go in the attic to see that he service cable run through the attic. Point of attachement was on the front of the house and the meter as on the back and it didn't go through the basement.

The use of 60 amp breakers for range and water heater should have been enough to promp further investigation.

A roll of #10 wire leaving the panel and still rolled up in the basement should have been another clue. Looked like they planned to run a circuit and changed their mind. Half roll of wire hanging on a nail and attached to 40 Amp breaker in the panel ( they did have wire nut on the conductors ).
 
If those guys don't carry O&E insurance, they sure should.
That's $50k+ he missed that this owner has to eat whether he makes the repairs or sells the house still needing all that work.
 
growler said:
New panel and obvious that it was installed in last few months or weeks.

I have not seen a home inspection where they didn't remove panel cover to check for double taps.

He didn't need to go in the attic to see that he service cable run through the attic. Point of attachement was on the front of the house and the meter as on the back and it didn't go through the basement.

The use of 60 amp breakers for range and water heater should have been enough to promp further investigation.

A roll of #10 wire leaving the panel and still rolled up in the basement should have been another clue. Looked like they planned to run a circuit and changed their mind. Half roll of wire hanging on a nail and attached to 40 Amp breaker in the panel ( they did have wire nut on the conductors ).
Click to expand...

Oh wow okay. I thought that HIs werent supposed to remove deadfronts.. maybe they can if there is a main breaker?

There are some ranges and water heaters that would need 60A breakers, tho they are far from typical. The cocked panel alone would have prompted me to pull the deadfront.

Double-tapped breakers are usually an easy fix, and not even a violation if the breaker is rated for it; I guess that particular violation is common, tho I rarely run across it.

There seem to be enough obvious electrical violations at this property to warrant the HI to recommend that an electrician look at the installation.
 
JFletcher said:
There are some ranges and water heaters that would need 60A breakers, tho they are far from typical.
Click to expand...

Cord connected range (small one ) that's only 5-6 feet from the panel on a 50 amp receptacle. You could just look over your shoulder and see it.

The water heater was about 30 gal and replaced a gas heater. I wish I had paid more attention because I don't think it was installed to code. I did notice hot and cold water were not bonded ( but that's normally not mentioned on home inspections ).
 
petersonra said:
i would not get real excited about it. Just walk away and don't look back.
Click to expand...

I did walk away, more because of the mold problem than anything else.

This is no skin off my nose but I does bother me how people try to cheat on a realestate deal. It seems to me that an owner would have to disclose several known problems on a deal like this.
 
growler said:
I did walk away, more because of the mold problem than anything else.

This is no skin off my nose but I does bother me how people try to cheat on a realestate deal. It seems to me that an owner would have to disclose several known problems on a deal like this.
Click to expand...

The attic mold was so bad you didnt want to do any of the electrical work? :blink:

istm the HO would get the roof done and mold abated before anything else was done.

It amazes me how many potential buyers have zero clue when it comes to the mechanics and structure of a new home, or, even worse, know these things but are too lazy to check or get bedazzled by things like granite countertops or a new pergola. Think of how many thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of dollars one could save, or not waste, by spending two hours in the attic and crawlspace examining everything with a fine tooth comb. I know that's what a HI is supposed to do, but it seems that many fall short, which amazes me given the price of an average home inspection.
 
Some of yet HIs do a really good job In this area. They have quite detailed reports complete with pictures. Others, not so much.

One of our CE classes was given by a guy that had several titles including HI. A good class.

I asked why they wrote up the lack of GFCIs in older homes that were never required to have them. "We inspect to the current Code." End of discussion.

I'm waiting for the first house written up for no AFCIs.
 
growler said:
I did walk away, more because of the mold problem than anything else.

This is no skin off my nose but I does bother me how people try to cheat on a realestate deal. It seems to me that an owner would have to disclose several known problems on a deal like this.
Click to expand...

People try to get an edge from both sides of real estate deals.

The owner can legitimately say he is not an expert on this kind of thing and hired an expert (the HI) to check things out for him. it is not the HO's fault that the licensed HI turned out to not be an expert either. There is no way the HO can evaluate the expertise of a HI. It would be like asking the Ho to evaluate the expertise of an MD, or an electrician.

Having said that, it seems quite possible that the HI would see a claim against his professional liability insurance for something like this.

As for the mold issue, I am told there is a vacant house down the street from me that the owners just abandoned to the bank because of mold. The guy that told me this said that what he heard was the mold inspector (whatever the heck that is) said it would be cheaper to tear the house down than to fix the mold problem.
 
Sometimes when HI sees a whole bunch wrong, he writes "recommend evaluation by electrician" or some such, and does not list much. I always figured he does not want to be the one with the bad news
 
readydave8 said:
Got 2 so far, bedrooms only

All 3 held on 1st house

2nd house had multiwire circuit to master bed so I did not attempt, explained to realtor, it all blew over
Click to expand...
FWIW, when GFCI is requested, we put in the AFCI/GFCI combination circuit breakers where possible because we are definitely modifying the wiring. The three wire recepts with no EG get a sticker. Only had one multi wire so far and the guys ran a new Romex to take care of that.
 
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