Home inspection report item.

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Item #1. Equipment grounding conductors do not appear to be bonded to the panel.

Look in panel and the panel is not bonded, no bonding screw or jumper. Install a bonding jumper to bond the panel.

Anyone want to guess what they are saying the home inspector was referring to in item #1 ?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
For no more information than given, seems like there is good chance it isn't bonded, but we don't even know if this is a service panel or feeder supplied panel and if grounded conductor and equipment grounding conductors need separated.

So I would say something is at very least not what HI would normally expect, however may or may not be code violation. EGC bars bolted to the cabinet are bonded to it, how they are bolted can sometimes be questionable though, and metal raceways are acceptable EGC if this is feeder supplied.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
For no more information than given, seems like there is good chance it isn't bonded, but we don't even know if this is a service panel or feeder supplied panel and if grounded conductor and equipment grounding conductors need separated..
Service panel with neutrals and grounds using same bar (neutral bar). Why else would you expect to find a ground bonding screw or need a bonding jumper.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Service panel with neutrals and grounds using same bar (neutral bar). Why else would you expect to find a ground bonding screw or need a bonding jumper.
You don't need a separate ground bars, you still need to bond the cabinet to the grounded conductor, easiest is with the bonding screw or strap supplied with the panel, but can be done with field made jumper.

If it is a meter/main or anything else labeled suitable only for use as service equipment it likely is permanently bonded somehow.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
In the meter pan? Unanswered question is whether there is a bond at all, is there?
The panel was not bonded.I bonded the panel.

I get a call from the customer saying the buyer is now saying that Item #1. Is referring to a bonding jumper between the hot and cold water pipes at the water heater. You would think that if an inspector would have wanted hot and cold water pipes bonded he would have said something along those line and not said grounds bonded to panel. .
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
You don't need a separate ground bars, you still need to bond the cabinet to the grounded conductor, easiest is with the bonding screw or strap supplied with the panel, but can be done with field made jumper.
This was an old gould panel and needed a bonding strap. I actually happened to have a couple of the old straps that I had no idea why I was saving them but they did come on handy.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I'm confused, was the inspector correct, or are you saying he wasn't?
I "assumed" the inspectors was saying that the panel was "not" bonded and it "wasn't". I bonded said panel.

I later get a call saying the inspector was talking about bonding hot and cold water at the water heater. I can't see where Item #1 says anything about pipes are water heaters.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
It’s because home inspectors don’t know anything about it...
they think they do and they have people duped into thinking they are all knowing and have a little bit of authority.
I have made good money changing stupid things that inspectors wrote up thinking the house had to be up to present codes..
he convinced said homeowners, so I changed out things, added stuff, and charged accordingly.

I figure if they want to believe unlicensed him over licensed me, so be it...
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
It’s because home inspectors don’t know anything about it...
I actually thought it was a pretty good catch for a home inspector. To notice that an original panel for a house built in 1979 that had never been bonded.
I'm pretty sure what happened to confused everyone. I think there were more than one home inspection and each inspector wrote different items. The inspection report I was given only had two electrical items. Item #1. was panel not bonded and Item #2 was a GFCI breaker not functioning.

I think the buyer's have a different home inspection report that states that hot and cold water need to be bonded.
 

MAC702

Senior Member
Location
Clark County, NV
Before you added the jumper, did you do a resistance test to see if it made a difference? Maybe there was already a bonding method that you both missed. Or maybe it was well bonded, just not by an approved method?

Agreed that the HI wasn't very specific. But they often do that on purpose. Put down enough words to justify their existence but make the professional do the actual inspection.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Before you added the jumper, did you do a resistance test to see if it made a difference? Maybe there was already a bonding method that you both missed. Or maybe it was well bonded, just not by an approved method?

Agreed that the HI wasn't very specific. But they often do that on purpose. Put down enough words to justify their existence but make the professional do the actual inspection.
No I didn't do a resistance check to see if the panel was bonded. There were 2 ea. # 4 solid copper ground wires entering the panel through romex connectors. This would show up as a bond but would not be acceptable. Making contact and showing a low resistance is not bonding.

All of those old panels that I remember had a bonding strap. Later on someone came up with the bonding screw. I had a bonding strap that I was probably never going to use for anything else so I used it. I keep a good selection of bonding screws from saving those that are not needed when doing service changes and panels swaps.

There was not an approved bonding method visible and that's what counts.


By the way folks I just got a text message that the closing on the house went through and the buyer is satisfied.

You will find arguments that the hot and cold water pipes don't need to be bonded at the water heater "but" if I had read that the HI wanted them bonded I would have done so. It's just faster and cheaper to try to address each items as listed ( small items that is ).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It’s because home inspectors don’t know anything about it...
they think they do and they have people duped into thinking they are all knowing and have a little bit of authority.
I have made good money changing stupid things that inspectors wrote up thinking the house had to be up to present codes..
he convinced said homeowners, so I changed out things, added stuff, and charged accordingly.

I figure if they want to believe unlicensed him over licensed me, so be it...
Smarter yet is to tell them what they don't need to do and still charge accordingly;)

You get a second opinion from a doctor they are charging you same office visit either way no reason we can't do that as well.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
No I didn't do a resistance check to see if the panel was bonded. There were 2 ea. # 4 solid copper ground wires entering the panel through romex connectors. This would show up as a bond but would not be acceptable. Making contact and showing a low resistance is not bonding.

All of those old panels that I remember had a bonding strap. Later on someone came up with the bonding screw. I had a bonding strap that I was probably never going to use for anything else so I used it. I keep a good selection of bonding screws from saving those that are not needed when doing service changes and panels swaps.

There was not an approved bonding method visible and that's what counts.


By the way folks I just got a text message that the closing on the house went through and the buyer is satisfied.

You will find arguments that the hot and cold water pipes don't need to be bonded at the water heater "but" if I had read that the HI wanted them bonded I would have done so. It's just faster and cheaper to try to address each items as listed ( small items that is ).
If you don't have original bonding screw or strap, you can always mount a lug (might need to remove paint behind it) and install appropriately sized bonding jumper.

Bonding hot and cold water lines - some disagreements on how that should be accomplished and some AHJ's even want to see a bonding jumper and clamps at the water heater. NEC alone does not require that though. Only reason additional bonding is needed is typically if isolating unions are used to connect the lines to the water heater, but even then they often still are bonded together naturally via a connection to shower/tub or other mixing valves.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
IMO the bonding jumpers are not required at the HWH so for the 2017 NEC I wrote a PI to clarify this. The CMP seems to have disagreed that they're not required.

Public Input No. 4314-NFPA 70-2014 [ Section No. 250.104(A)(1) ]
(1) General.
Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service
equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of
sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in
accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3). Bonding jumpers shall
not be required between the hot and cold water piping systems at hot water heaters to maintain the
continuity of the piping system.

Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Public Input
Substantiation: There seems to be some confusion as to when applying 250.104(A)(1) that a hot water heater
requires that the continuity between the hot and cold piping be maintained by the use of a bonding jumper, similar
to the ones required by 250.68(B) around water meters, etc. Sections 250.104(A)(1) and 250.68(B) are different in
that bonding jumpers required by 250.68(B) are to maintain the continuity of grounding electrode, the same
continuity requirement does not apply to the bonding of piping systems. This additional wording will clarify that
bonding jumpers are not required around hot water heaters to comply with 250.104(A)(1).
Submitter Information Verification
Submitter Full Name:robert meier
Organization: NA
Street Address:
City:
State:
Zip:
Submittal Date: Thu Nov 06 19:02:22 EST 2014
Committee Statement
Resolution: Plumbing fittings and fixtures may not always provide reliable bonding between hot and cold water
lines.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
IMO the bonding jumpers are not required at the HWH so for the 2017 NEC I wrote a PI to clarify this. The CMP seems to have disagreed that they're not required.
They disagreed because you called it a hot water heater...:lol:

im sorry Rob, I couldn’t resist..:angel:
 

jxofaltrds

Senior Member
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI
Didn't we settle this years ago?

From the plumbing code:

601.1 Scope. This chapter shall govern the materials, design and installation of water supply systems within a building, both hot and cold, for utilization in connection with human occupancy and habitation.

Systems = bonding.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Didn't we settle this years ago?

From the plumbing code:

601.1 Scope. This chapter shall govern the materials, design and installation of water supply systems within a building, both hot and cold, for utilization in connection with human occupancy and habitation.

Systems = bonding.
The issue is that the hot and cold are connected together elsewhere typically at a faucet, tub filler or shower body so the bonding jumper at the HWH is redundant and therefore not needed.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
IMO the bonding jumpers are not required at the HWH so for the 2017 NEC I wrote a PI to clarify this. The CMP seems to have disagreed that they're not required.
I don't think they necessarily disagree that they are not required, just that some cases a jumper may be required. There certainly isn't any wording that says if required it must be at the water heater either. I (and possibly the CMP) agree with what you intended but maybe not how you worded it. Personally I am fine with what it is, other than the fact that some don't want to read it for what it says.
 
Top