Home PF Correction?

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Do a search of this forum, and you will find several threads in which you will learn why this product is not worth the time it will take you to do the search. :grin: It is certainly not worth the money you would spend on the electricity your computer will use during the search.
 
080701-1031 EST

jimmac49:

The site you referenced is interesting in the tricky deception used in the written material and the videos.

From a homeowner's point of view current is not a very important parameter in determining the cost of electricity. Power and its integral, energy, is what is important. A major deception is that power factor is of importance to the customer and/or his electric bill.

The box includes a transient limiter and thus some of the written claims might stand up in court, but these are subtle, and the general deception is not defensible.

The video shows an unloaded motor. This is the worst power factor condition for the motor. As the motor load increases the power factor will improve, also as voltage is reduced power factor will improve to a point.

The second video somehow contrived an unrealistically low power factor on a home for the condition before addition of their capacitor.

I could point out other deceptions, but for the most part it is fraud.

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Power Factor

Power Factor

Power Factor is the ratio between real power (measured in watts) and apparent power (measured in volt-amperes) shown as a number between 0 and 1. If the power factor on your house is less than one the Utility Co. will have to supply more current to you for a given amount of power use.
Totally restive loads (heating elements, etc.) have a power factor of 1, but inductive loads (motors, etc.) current lags voltage resulting in a power factor lower then 1 , capacitors have the opposite effect and can compensate for the inductive motor windings resulting in energy savings. Many industrial facility's use large banks of capacitors for the purpose of correcting the power factor and saving on the utility bill.

The product you are looking at is a small bank of capacitor used for the purpose of correcting power factor and their for resulting in a lower utility bill.
 
mlsteele said:
...and can compensate for the inductive motor windings resulting in energy savings. Many industrial facility's use large banks of capacitors for the purpose of correcting the power factor and saving on the utility bill.

The product you are looking at is a small bank of capacitor used for the purpose of correcting power factor and their for resulting in a lower utility bill.
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Sorry, pure Bull Pucky.

Large industrial users get POWER FACTOR PENALTIES and so correction of power factor can result in lower BILLS by virtue of avoiding those penalties, but there is no savings in billable ENERGY consumption. Residential consumers in North America do NOT get pf penalties assessed, so there are NO SAVINGS WHATSOEVER. It is a pure scam, perpetrated on a populace that does not truly understand how their power gets to them.

Most of the examples these people use in their scam come from 3rd world countrieswhere they sometimes DO assess pf penalties to small users and even residences. I have heard that small village utilities in India and Africa will do this, but there is NO APPLICATION FOR IT IN N. AMERICA.
 
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080701-1232 EST

mlsteele:

Do you know of any residential customers that pay a penalty for non-unity power factor?

Even small business applications in our area do not have power factor monitored.

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Even large commercial users in our area do not pay for poor pf. But our only industry in this area is Government and we know what they produce.

Just out of curiosity mlsteele, do you work for one of these Snake Oil manufactures?

EDITED TO ADD:

This stuff makes me SICK, homeowners that hopefully should know better (cause there aren't any free lunches) are buying the devices based upon recommendations of unknowing or knowledgeable ECs'. There is one residential contractor in our area that says he is installing numerous of these devices weekly (reported in local paper), he touts his firm a POWER QUALITY investigator.
 
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I guess mlsteele has figured out by now that he stepped in it.:smile:

This must be an area of electrical engineering and design that he is unfamiliar with.:roll:
 
wptski said:
What happens if/when we have to switch to all CFL's that have a poor power factor?
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Electric rates will go up on average but usage will be less. The end user will reduce lighting power requirements by about 50%.

I suspect they will eventually make a CF lamp that has a better pf (at a higher price, of course) unless they get overtaken by other technology.

I never realized they were a 60% pf. I just assumed they would be corrected, considering we have higher pf ballasts and all. Just went to GE Lighting and that was their spec.
 
mivey said:
Electric rates will go up on average but usage will be less. The end user will reduce lighting power requirements by about 50%.

I suspect they will eventually make a CF lamp that has a better pf (at a higher price, of course) unless they get overtaken by other technology.

I never realized they were a 60% pf. I just assumed they would be corrected, considering we have higher pf ballasts and all. Just went to GE Lighting and that was their spec.
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If industry has to pay extra for poor power factor, what makes you think that we won't? How long do you think they'll generate 33W for a 18W CFL as an example I've read about? Just seems to be something that seems great right now but later is going turn bad.

I purchased a few a Home Depot that stated >.9 PF but were really .6!
 
wptski said:
If industry has to pay extra for poor power factor, what makes you think that we won't? How long do you think they'll generate 33W for a 18W CFL as an example I've read about? Just seems to be something that seems great right now but later is going turn bad.

I purchased a few a Home Depot that stated >.9 PF but were really .6!
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Who said we won't? We (I'm assuming you mean residential & small commercial users) already pay extra for poor power factor as the costs are embedded in the rates.

I don't think they generate 33W for an 18W CFL.

What brand were the CFL from HD? I would like to see how the marketing folks got around the facts. I've got some Bright Effects lamps from Lowes and have had trouble with starting in cold weather and short life. The low power factor is just another thing I can add to the list.
 
The overall effect of power factor from residential users, however massive we may think it is, is in fact inconsequential to the utilities. Their regulation dictates the available power handling their distribution equipment must provide. The fact that there may or may not be poor pf at the residential user's level makes no difference to that, so in effect it isn't worth it to them to bother trying to collect for it, even if they could. Their real delivery cost issues come from large commercial and industrial users who are running a LOT of induction motors. The T&D equipment must be significantly over sized to deal with poor pf, so that directly affects the utilities' costs of doing business. That is why they are allowed to try to offset those costs with penalties.

The poor pf seen from using a CF bulb, or any ballasted system, is primarily distortion power factor, not displacement power factor. There is a difference, especially in the effect it has on the equipment supplying the power. The effects will be in the local pole mounted transformers running hotter (theoretically). Eventually, the increased use of ballasted systems may cause the local transformers to have a slightly shorter life, which means increased replacement frequency etc. etc., but overall, the net effect on consumers will not likely be seen or noticed in anyone's individual lifetime.

I'm more interested in the added mercury that we are now dumping into the environment. I know it is discussed a lot elsewhere and I don't mean to hijack this thread, it's just that to me, pf is not as big a deal to worry about.
 
mivey said:
Who said we won't? We (I'm assuming you mean residential & small commercial users) already pay extra for poor power factor as the costs are embedded in the rates.

I don't think they generate 33W for an 18W CFL.

What brand were the CFL from HD? I would like to see how the marketing folks got around the facts. I've got some Bright Effects lamps from Lowes and have had trouble with starting in cold weather and short life. The low power factor is just another thing I can add to the list.
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They were TCPI. In fact, I had to return one of a two pack that didn't work! The girls asked where the other one was and I said in a socket, working. She said that I had to return both of them!:rolleyes: Ended up, splitting up a two pack.

Here's where, I think that 33W for 18W CFL is mentioned.
 
Jraef said:
The overall effect of power factor from residential users, however massive we may think it is, is in fact inconsequential to the utilities. Their regulation dictates the available power handling their distribution equipment must provide. The fact that there may or may not be poor pf at the residential user's level makes no difference to that, so in effect it isn't worth it to them to bother trying to collect for it, even if they could. Their real delivery cost issues come from large commercial and industrial users who are running a LOT of induction motors. The T&D equipment must be significantly over sized to deal with poor pf, so that directly affects the utilities' costs of doing business. That is why they are allowed to try to offset those costs with penalties.

The poor pf seen from using a CF bulb, or any ballasted system, is primarily distortion power factor, not displacement power factor. There is a difference, especially in the effect it has on the equipment supplying the power. The effects will be in the local pole mounted transformers running hotter (theoretically). Eventually, the increased use of ballasted systems may cause the local transformers to have a slightly shorter life, which means increased replacement frequency etc. etc., but overall, the net effect on consumers will not likely be seen or noticed in anyone's individual lifetime.

I'm more interested in the added mercury that we are now dumping into the environment. I know it is discussed a lot elsewhere and I don't mean to hijack this thread, it's just that to me, pf is not as big a deal to worry about.
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It may not be inconsequential if there is a massive switch to them!

Distortion, now there's something we really need!:rolleyes:
 
Now if you couple this with a possible large influx of residential car battery chargers, VFDs on HVAC units and things could change. But I doubt the utility would lose in the long run.
 
Jraef said:
The overall effect of power factor from residential users, however massive we may think it is, is in fact inconsequential to the utilities...That is why they are allowed to try to offset those costs with penalties.

The poor pf seen from using a CF bulb, or any ballasted system, is primarily distortion power factor, not displacement power factor.
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vars is vars and the costs will have to be recovered, residential or industrial. The POCOs are allowed to recovered power factor costs from residential and industrial. We don't have a separate penalty on the residential because the load is too small to meter and track these quantities by customer. That is why the var costs for residential are embedded in the rates.

I did not think about the displacement power factor on CFLs. Do you have some of this electrical data for the CFLs?
 
mivey said:
vars is vars and the costs will have to be recovered, residential or industrial. The POCOs are allowed to recovered power factor costs from residential and industrial.
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Yeah, but when you consider the cost of these power save whiz-bangs, and the attendant costs of having it installed, you're much better off letting the PoCo go ahead and recover those few pennies from you.
 
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