home sale inspection requirements

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Mr. Serious

Mr. Serious

Senior Member
Location
Oklahoma, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I may be doing electrical work to prepare a house for sale, I have a couple of specific questions:

House is in rural Muskogee County, Oklahoma. There is no requirement there to get a permit or inspection, but of course work is still supposed to be done to code. And of course, whether or not an electrical inspection is done, the house sale will still involve a general inspector who inspects everything.

The main panels are older, but not of a type known to be unsafe, and still look to be in acceptable condition. There is a 200A Sylvania panel (not the Zinsco type, but the type with 1" black breakers), and a 150A General Switch panel. I told the homeowner I wouldn't replace them, only thing I would do is put in some blank filler plates to fill the holes, and change any breaker that isn't listed for use in that particular panel. I believe that's only one breaker, a 2-pole 60 amp type HOM that is installed in the General Switch panel. Listed breaker types (according to the label) are General Switch type GA, GE types TQL or TQAL, Westinghouse quicklag P, Frank Adams Quicklag P, ITE type EQ-P; and several types of tandem breakers. So, what types of breakers still manufactured today will fit this panel? My first thought was Eaton type BR, but I didn't see at first that type is only listed for a twin/tandem breaker. I'm thinking maybe GE type THQL or Siemens type QP will work? For filler plates, use GE ones? I see now that there are two more double-pole breakers in that panel that may not be listed for it, since the tandem/twin Bryant BRD is listed, but not the full-size type BR.

Will update receptacles to GFCIs where required.

Closet lights, bare bulbs - I know that's not allowed. What about little mushroom fixtures with a light bulb inside? I was looking through the NEC, and I think that's not allowed either. So, the way to fix this would be with LED disk lights? Possibly just leave as is if the inspector wouldn't be likely to flag this as a problem.

No porch receptacles. Current code requires, but it wouldn't be required to add them on an older home, right? Homeowner wants to add one on the front porch anyway, but didn't say anything about the back.
 
Just to make it clear, my main questions were:
1. what type of breakers and/or filler plates to use in those panels.
2. whether to worry about fixing bare bulb closet lights (keyless fixtures, switched via regular wall switch), and what to replace them with.

And, I just found my notes and see I have another question:
There's a clothes dryer right in front of the main panels! How to fix? Seems like the options are: relocate the panels, or relocate the dryer. I guess I wasn't sure if anyone would really make an issue of this, though, for the purpose of selling a house.
 
Hello fellow Okie! I lived in OKC for 20 years!
#1 There are companies all over the internet that sell used and reconditioned breakers. Not a good option IMO because you never know if they have been altered to the point that would not comply with UL listings. Best bet is to try to find new breakers that are listed for the panel before going the other route.

#2 If you can install LED disk lights and remove the keyless fixtures, I would do it. Bare bulbs have been proven to be fire hazards when combustible materials are stored on shelves. If you still can't comply with NEC Art. 410.16 (C) 1 through 5, and you want to illuminate the closets, you can blank the outlets off and install battery operated push lights above the door header.

#3 If the dryer is not directly in front of the panel, just the cord to the dryer in front of it, then I see no problem. Art. 110.26 (A) (3) allows other equipment associated with the electrical installation above or below as long as it doesn't extend more than 6" in front of the equipment. I would put a 4" square box and a piece of 3/4" EMT and move it personally, but that's your call.
 
If the installation was compliant with codes in force at the time, it need not be modified.
 
I'd fix the fire hazards like closet lights, etc. Make sure the smoke detectors work . All lights all switches should work. All outlets should be grounded.
You never know what people are going to do when they move in. They may renovate even relocate the laundry room, who knows.
Besides the bank inspector needs to find something wrong. ;)
 
readydave8 said:
Hard to predict what a "general inspector " (HI?) will or will not write up, around here it's all over the map (altho they usually mention "double taps")
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Was recently at a repair job that the HO had a HI report from when he bought the house not six months before. HI listed cable clamps missing on the SEU, but there was a compliant spacing and amount. But never mentioned the ripped open insulation, or the weather head being broken off the side of the house, or the missing covers on J boxes, or missing GFCI in kitchen.
 
From what I've read on an HI forum Sylvania panels are considered to be right up there with Zinsco and FPE. Many HI's will call them out for replacement. I would replace the lights in the closets with something that complies with 410.16(A).
 
Home inspections for selling a home are nothing more than a report card for both buyer and seller to use for price negotiations. No work is required to be done by either party at all until they make some sort of agreement that is part of the contract to sell the home.

No different than having a mechanic check out a used car you are thinking about buying. You are generally getting it "As is", but can make negotiations on price based on what it may cost to fix a problem or tell owner to fix that problem if he wants his asking price.

IMO bringing things up to current code, especially if what is there was compliant when installed, shouldn't be expected or required either, can still factor into price to some extent though. With used car analogy that is kind of like saying your 1980 vehicle will need to be equipped with antilock brakes and airbags before you can sell it.
 
kwired said:
Home inspections for selling a home are nothing more than a report card for both buyer and seller to use for price negotiations. No work is required to be done by either party at all until they make some sort of agreement that is part of the contract to sell the home
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I agree with the second part but a home inspection is not only for negotiations it tells the potential buyer the condition of the home which often kills the deal when the home is in poor shape and the HI finds substantial defects.
 
infinity said:
I agree with the second part but a home inspection is not only for negotiations it tells the potential buyer the condition of the home which often kills the deal when the home is in poor shape and the HI finds substantial defects.
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In my state, “known substantial defects” are required to be disclosed by the seller. There should be none of these for an HI to discover.
It’s possible for something major to be unknown to the seller, but I’d bet that’s pretty rare.
 
infinity said:
I agree with the second part but a home inspection is not only for negotiations it tells the potential buyer the condition of the home which often kills the deal when the home is in poor shape and the HI finds substantial defects.
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Yes, but the two sort of go together. If there are items in poor shape, a buyer is typically going to want to offer less. Seller can decline but may have hard time with some deficiencies if they want to get their asking price.

There is more than just electrical involved in the entire aspect here as well, though sometimes there is an electrical only inspection and other areas inspected by others. I get asked to do such on occasion. I usually find a way out of not doing it. Not worth it to me unless I am going to make good $$. I am not running through and giving a blessing on condition without somewhat thorough look over. Yet they want a somewhat cheap price and a good report (I am assuming in most cases) And even then I still will put in my report there are items that were not able to be seen and I can't verify what condition they are in unless they want to take off wall and ceiling coverings so they can be seen.
 
retirede said:
In my state, “known substantial defects” are required to be disclosed by the seller. There should be none of these for an HI to discover.
It’s possible for something major to be unknown to the seller, but I’d bet that’s pretty rare.
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What is major?

When it comes to wiring, a developing glowing connection can be dangerous, but may not be easy to detect in a fairly general inspection either. Of course that isn't necessarily "known" either, but I can see potential litigation coming out after the fact if this scenario happened.
 
retirede said:
In my state, “known substantial defects” are required to be disclosed by the seller. There should be none of these for an HI to discover.
It’s possible for something major to be unknown to the seller, but I’d bet that’s pretty rare.
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That is true here as well but! Just did a service meter changeout on a home recently, HI never pick up on the issue, but also on other side previous owner did know as the power company had on records a service call was made and the previous owner was informed of the issue with the meter pan and the need to get it changed. Don't know if a POCO would ever give a "legal" statement to that effect though.
 
Had a customer purchase a huge home that had a full basement cinderblock wall. Back in the utilities room someone had put stucco on the block walls. The stucco had big cracks forming in it. The new owner was able to prove the cracks were intentionally hidden by the previous owner with the stucco..
He was able to sue them for the cost of the foundation repair.
That's called 'Failure to disclose"
That's not the same as a dryer in front of a electric panel in plain view.
 
kwired said:
What is major?

When it comes to wiring, a developing glowing connection can be dangerous, but may not be easy to detect in a fairly general inspection either. Of course that isn't necessarily "known" either, but I can see potential litigation coming out after the fact if this scenario happened.
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It’s been a long time since I’ve seen the wording, but I seem to recall things like foundation cracks, water ingress, roof leaks, presence of asbestos and mold.
I don’t recall anything specific about electrical issues.
 
Many States have seller disclosure laws. Around here there is a long disclosure form but you can certain say that you don't know when it asks specific questions.
 
Listed breaker types (according to the label) are General Switch type GA, GE types TQL or TQAL, Westinghouse quicklag P, Frank Adams Quicklag P, ITE type EQ-P; and several types of tandem breakers. So, what types of breakers still manufactured today will fit this panel? My first thought was Eaton type BR, but I didn't see at first that type is only listed for a twin/tandem breaker. I'm thinking maybe GE type THQL or Siemens type QP will work? For filler plates, use GE ones? I see now that there are two more double-pole breakers in that panel that may not be listed for it, since the tandem/twin Bryant BRD is listed, but not the full-size type BR.
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Westinghouse Quick Lag are the same as Bryant, Bryant was actually just a brand name FOR Westinghouse, Frank Adams used the Bryant/Westinghouse breakers too. Eaton bought Westinghouse (distribution), and in doing so inherited all of the Westinghouse /Bryant legacies; they only kept the Bryant name because that was the most prominent.

The ITE type EQ-P are what became the Siemens type EQ-P, then later just the QP and Murray too by the way; it's all the same.

I'm kind of surprised at the GE THQ being listed, they have a slightly different bus slot than the others and usually need to have the plastic case broken out around the stab assembly to fit (into Bryant or Siemens panels), so maybe Sylvania figured out a way to use them.
 
ramsy said:
Challenger Type-A, and I believe GTE-Sylvania made a clip-on circuit breaker, which is frequently discovered with burn damage at bus stabs.
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I remember it was always the B phase (lower) stab that overheated with this style main breaker:1641546332492.png
 
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