Homeline Tandem breaker installations

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copper123

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Hello,
Today I saw my third example of improper wiring done by a homeowner. It would seem that when you go to the big box stores and look at the distribution panels, the literature is a little misleading. The amount of ckts that can be installed in the panel is calculated by using tandem breakers. I, myself never use them, but it would seem that home owners are doing tons of wiring and loading the panels up. What is scaring me is the fact that on three different instances, I have found that folks have run multiwire ckts on a 12/3 wire. What is troubling is the fact that they are landing both hot conductors on the tandem breaker (the same phase). At one house, I asked the owner what was the deal. He informed me that the folks that sold him the products told him he could save a few dollars by running the multiwire ckt. Anyhow, i will keep the names out of it, but I was wondering if anybody else is seeing this out there.
 
Re: Homeline Tandem breaker installations

I see this kind of thing from time to time. Usually the neutrals are still OK since the two circuits in the multiwire aren't all that loaded.

None of this surprises me. When you get unqualified big-box employees giving electrical advice to unqualified homeowners, it's not exactly a formula for success.
 
Re: Homeline Tandem breaker installations

I inspect on average about 5 DIY/homeowner jobs a week in my city. This means there are probably dozens out there not being permitted. Some do a good job, some not so good, and some are scary.

There is nothing that can be done to stop it. The best thing to do is to keep pushing manufacturer's to come up with better and safer products that are as fool-proof as possible. This is not to encourage more people to try doing their own work, but perhaps eliminate simple yet dangerous mistakes caused by those who are going to do it no matter what.
 
Re: Homeline Tandem breaker installations

We'll never be able to stop homeowners from doing their own electrical work. In general, they are under the impression that we are expensive and overcharge for everything. They have no conception of what our costs of doing business are. We have to maintain our licenses, put a truck on the road, insure it and ourselves, pay employees, keep up to date on the latest codes, do quality work with quality material (not the big box store type), and stand behind your work. Yet, we're perceived as "rip off artists". What we really should be focusing on is the friend of the brother-in-law's cousin's friend's brother who does electrical work at a reduced price. When they get installation info from the big box stores - we're in trouble.

Now, it wouldn't be so bad if the big box stores were offering quality info on installations. But they are not up to date, as we are, on the electrical code and they're not knowledgeable about proper installation practices. When you send a customer to a big box store with a list of material that you will require for a job ( like IC rated recessed fixtures) and the person in charge of that dept says "No, your electrician doesn't know what he's talking about, that's not what you want, use these non-IC type cans and just push the insulation away", that's when it starts to hurt. I wish there was something we could do (on an industry wide level) but it seems hopeless!!!

I use the 30 breaker, 40 circuit panel often for retrofits mostly because of the reduced size of the panel. If the location of the existing breaker panel can accept a std. 40 circuit panel I will use that one.

The sad part is if we burn someone's house down due to an electrical fault, the homeowner can put in a claim on our insurance. If the house burns down based on info that a big box store gave - can the homeowner make a claim on their insurance ?
 
Re: Homeline Tandem breaker installations

Whenever I go into my local big box, I always take my hearing protection and put it on as I enter the electrical department. If I didn't, I'd spend the rest of the day there doling out advice and instruction to correct what the employees give.

I was in a local franchised "Mom and Pop" hardware store and they had a mock-up of a panel with tandem breakers. There was a hand written sign advertising "Double your breaker space without changing your breaker panel !!"

Unreal.
 
Re: Homeline Tandem breaker installations

I saw a commercial electrician do this just the other day. :eek:

Even scarier, he gave me the man from mars stare when I tried to explain the violation. I know his supervisor and the owner of the company and look forward to razzing them about it.

BTW:
What is trade slang for doing this? That is putting both ungrounded conductors from a multiwire circuit on the same phase?? Or is there a slang for it??
Even though I endeavor to use terms correctly, I find it easier to get my point across sometimes if we're both talking the same language. Saves time.
 
Re: Homeline Tandem breaker installations

Originally posted by sandsnow:
BTW:
What is trade slang for doing this? That is putting both ungrounded conductors from a multiwire circuit on the same phase??
Click to expand...
Ignorance.

This is the kind of workmanship that separates an electrician (who understands electricity and electrical theory) from a mechanic (for whom the term is quite apropriate).

If someone doesn't understand that both poles of a tandem take power from the same panel bus stab, and why that matters in a three-wire circuit, they should remain a helper.

I take every moment I can to explain to my helpers why we do what we do the way we do, like connecting stranded wire to solid, how 3- and 4-way switching circuits work, etc.
 
Re: Homeline Tandem breaker installations

Not much to add to the diy aspect having just done a remodel on a house that was "rewired" by a diy. If he came by while I was working there I would be locked up right now.

Anyway. Tandem breakers when properly installed are not a problem.
 
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