Homeline twin breakers, ctl vs non-ctl?

[sw_ross]

Do homeline twin breakers come in non-ctl breaker version that can be mounted anywhere in the panel?
The supply house said they just have one form of a twin breaker and it would fit anywhere in the panel. It doesn’t... at least on the panel I was working on.

Looking at the breaker the notch that clips on to the bus is shallower than a regular breaker making it seem like it’s a ctl breaker and only goes in specific locations in a panel?

Most of my experience with ctl and non-ctl breakers is with Siemens. This is the first time I’ve needed to put a twin in a homeline.

 

[curt swartz]

HOMT's do NOT come in a NON CTL version. The CTL requirement was in place long before HOM existed.

The buss must have the notched stab to accept the HOMT breakers. There are not different depths of notches. Its either notched or its not. The label on the inside of the loadcenter will show where HOMT's can be installed

 

[sw_ross]

Thanks for the info.

 

[infinity]

Isn't this CTL/non CTL thing going away with the removal of the 42 circuit panelboard limit?

 

[jim dungar]

Isn't this CTL/non CTL thing going away with the removal of the 42 circuit panelboard limit?

Not really. While the panelboard maximum was braised to 84, you still cannot install more circuits than the panel was UL listed for.

 

[norcal]

Not really. While the panelboard maximum was braised to 84, you still cannot install more circuits than the panel was UL listed for.

Tell that to people who install twins in the vast majority of Cutler-Hammer CH panels, very few are listed for their use.

 

[infinity]

Not really. While the panelboard maximum was braised to 84, you still cannot install more circuits than the panel was UL listed for.

Eaton now makes panels without any special modifications to the bus to allow for all tandem non-CTL CB's. As long they call it whatever 20/40 or 40/80 the CTL/non-CTL thing is gone.

 

[jim dungar]

Eaton now makes panels without any special modifications to the bus to allow for all tandem non-CTL CB's. As long they call it whatever 20/40 or 40/80 the CTL/non-CTL thing is gone.

Yep. In that case the manufacturer is giving permission to use tandem breakers.

 

[James L]

Eaton now makes panels without any special modifications to the bus to allow for all tandem non-CTL CB's. As long they call it whatever 20/40 or 40/80 the CTL/non-CTL thing is gone.

Yup. The last dozen or so panels I've installed have said 30/60 or 40/80 and do not have notches for CTL breakers

 

[texie]

I don't get why, say, a 40/80 load center has any real value. Who wants a new install with a load center full of twins? Not to mention the many types of breakers that aren't even made in twin form factor.

 

[sw_ross]

So, a question that will expose my lack of knowledge/understanding of ctl vs non-ctl breaker applications.

1) I understand the concept of ctl panels and manufacturers having specific sections in the panel that they allow the twin breakers. But is the reason for that concept due to the 42 circuit max rule? (Understanding that the rule no longer applies to new panels, I’m referring to existing installs and working with older panels)

2) If I was working in an old Siemens (or ITE) panel and using non-ctl breakers to add circuits to the panel theoretically I could add more circuits than the panel would be rated for and ultimately be non-code compliant by not following the panels UL listing?

3) What is the purpose of non-ctl breakers in a code compliant install? In my mind, a non-ctl breaker is used to allow me to add circuits anywhere in the panel that I want- but that would be non-code compliant? What is a proper use of a non-ctl breaker?

 

[James L]

I don't get why, say, a 40/80 load center has any real value. Who wants a new install with a load center full of twins? Not to mention the many types of breakers that aren't even made in twin form factor.

I use the 30/60 a lot, both 100a and 200a

I like the compact size, and if I use twins on all the non-afci/gfci circuits, there are usually a half dozen spaces left.

Just because it CAN be loaded full of twins doesn't mean it will be

 

[James L]

So, a question that will expose my lack of knowledge/understanding of ctl vs non-ctl breaker applications.

1) I understand the concept of ctl panels and manufacturers having specific sections in the panel that they allow the twin breakers. But is the reason for that concept due to the 42 circuit max rule? (Understanding that the rule no longer applies to new panels, I’m referring to existing installs and working with older panels)

Yes. Some manufacturers might have a 20/40 panel or a 30/40 panel. In the latter, only 1/3 of the bus would have notches for twins

2) If I was working in an old Siemens (or ITE) panel and using non-ctl breakers to add circuits to the panel theoretically I could add more circuits than the panel would be rated for and ultimately be non-code compliant by not following the panels UL listing?

In that old panel, the non-CTL breakers would be for replacement only. Using them to add circuits would be a no-no

3) What is the purpose of non-ctl breakers in a code compliant install? In my mind, a non-ctl breaker is used to allow me to add circuits anywhere in the panel that I want- but that would be non-code compliant? What is a proper use of a non-ctl breaker?

As was mentioned earlier, Eaton is now sending out their BR panels without any notches in the bus, and listing them for use with twin breakers in every slot. Therefore, they are sending out a 30/60 or a 40/80 panel that will not accept CTL breakers. If you want to put in a twin breaker in that panel, you have to use a non-CTL breaker

 

[infinity]

I don't get why, say, a 40/80 load center has any real value. Who wants a new install with a load center full of twins? Not to mention the many types of breakers that aren't even made in twin form factor.

The form factor is smaller which may help if you're doing a panel upgrade or replacement on an older panel where space is limited. Also in that scenario you do not need to install AFCI circuit breakers so twin breakers can be used anywhere in the panel. The only real issue is that non-CTL Eaton breaker are more expensive.

 

[James L]

The only real issue is that non-CTL Eaton breaker are more expensive.

Double price or more.
$10.00 vs $18-22

But I was at HD the other day and saw they had non-CTL SquareD QO at $100.00 each

Website shows $60