Hot Tub disconnect...

Status
Not open for further replies.
1793

1793

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
Occupation
Inspector
I have been asked to wire up a Hot Tub, 50A 240V outdoors at a residence. When the basement was remodeled a while back the EC ran a line out and mounted a 60A A/C non fused pull-out disconnect. I would like to know if I can leave this disconnect and put the GFCI protection back in the panel.

As always, thanks in advance.
 
1793 said:
I have been asked to wire up a Hot Tub, 50A 240V outdoors at a residence. When the basement was remodeled a while back the EC ran a line out and mounted a 60A A/C non fused pull-out disconnect. I would like to know if I can leave this disconnect and put the GFCI protection back in the panel.

As always, thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
I've done it that way before, and can not come up with anything that would prohibit it.
 
As long as it's GFI protected you're ok. Two down sides to this type of installation that I can think of are (1) If it trips you have a longer walk to reset the breaker, (2) If it trips you won't know if it was caused by a ground fault condition or an over load. I suppose you could say the latter would be the same case even if the GFI were within sight of the tub, but if you have to trouble-shoot the problem I would rather walk fewer steps to reset than more steps. Just my opinion.
 
kwired said:
I've done it that way before, and can not come up with anything that would prohibit it.
Click to expand...

goldstar said:
As long as it's GFI protected you're ok. Two down sides to this type of installation that I can think of are (1) If it trips you have a longer walk to reset the breaker, (2) If it trips you won't know if it was caused by a ground fault condition or an over load. I suppose you could say the latter would be the same case even if the GFI were within sight of the tub, but if you have to trouble-shoot the problem I would rather walk fewer steps to reset than more steps. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that helps. I could not think of any issue but I like to get confirmation when I can.
 
goldstar said:
As long as it's GFI protected you're ok. Two down sides to this type of installation that I can think of are (1) If it trips you have a longer walk to reset the breaker, (2) If it trips you won't know if it was caused by a ground fault condition or an over load. I suppose you could say the latter would be the same case even if the GFI were within sight of the tub, but if you have to trouble-shoot the problem I would rather walk fewer steps to reset than more steps. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...
My experiences with hot tubs, if it trips on ground fault, is almost always a heating element gone bad, and the majority of the time it will not reset as the controller in the spa does not open both lines to the element so that fault is still in the supply circuit upon energizing the supply circuit.

The chance of the breaker tripping on overload is probably pretty slim, overloaded motors are going to trip individual motor overload protection first, heating elements are not going to draw more current unless they are subjected to higher voltage somehow, and if that happens for too long you still likely end up with a ground fault condition.
 
If its a standard AC Pullout and the Tub requires a Neutral, I'm curious as to where they landed the neutral since there is usually only a Ground Lug and not a Neutral Bar in a pullout and I despise the ones that wirenut neutrals in a disconnect and dont land em.
 
jap said:
If its a standard AC Pullout and the Tub requires a Neutral, I'm curious as to where they landed the neutral since there is usually only a Ground Lug and not a Neutral Bar in a pullout and I despise the ones that wirenut neutrals in a disconnect and dont land em.
Click to expand...

Why? I guess you could use a Polaris connector or similar, split bolt, or other means. It is no different than if you had a junction box in the circuit run, and if the enclosure would happen to be non metallic, you wouldn't necessarily need to have a ground lug as the enclosure wouldn't need bonded.
 
kwired said:
Why? I guess you could use a Polaris connector or similar, split bolt, or other means. It is no different than if you had a junction box in the circuit run, and if the enclosure would happen to be non metallic, you wouldn't necessarily need to have a ground lug as the enclosure wouldn't need bonded.
Click to expand...

Has nothing to do with bonding with me.
Its about checking voltage and if theres a neutral in a disconnect i always provide a disconnect that has a neutral termination point in it and dont like installations where the neutrals are not terminated, run straight through, or wirenuted or splitbolted and taped.
 
jap said:
Has nothing to do with bonding with me.
Its about checking voltage and if theres a neutral in a disconnect i always provide a disconnect that has a neutral termination point in it and dont like installations where the neutrals are not terminated, run straight through, or wirenuted or splitbolted and taped.
Click to expand...

The disconnect had an EGC block but no neutral bar. Like Kwired, I don't see where a neutral bar is necessary.

The instructions I was given had this install was a 3 wire but when it arrived today I was informed it had to be a 4 wire setup. I used a wirenut to connect the neutrals together.
 
1793 said:
The disconnect had an EGC block but no neutral bar. Like Kwired, I don't see where a neutral bar is necessary.

The instructions I was given had this install was a 3 wire but when it arrived today I was informed it had to be a 4 wire setup. I used a wirenut to connect the neutrals together.
Click to expand...


I see no issue with that at all and I have done the same
 
1793 said:
The disconnect had an EGC block but no neutral bar. Like Kwired, I don't see where a neutral bar is necessary.

The instructions I was given had this install was a 3 wire but when it arrived today I was informed it had to be a 4 wire setup. I used a wirenut to connect the neutrals together.
Click to expand...

Well dang you......... I'll just have to add you to my list.:)
 
jap said:
Cheezy wiring jobs will never end..:)
Click to expand...
Yup, we're Hacks.... BTW, you better check and see if the instructions call for a full sized equipment grounding conductor. Many tubs require that-- it is BS in my opinion but nonetheless it is there.
 
Putting the GFCI in the panel is dumb- but not for the reasons you expect.

Buying just a 2-pole GFCI breaker is likely to cost you about $100. Buying a complete (outdoor) replacement disconnect/ spa panel, including the GFCI breaker, often costs less than $70. Yea, I know, hard to believe - but true.

So ... just swap out disconnects.
 
renosteinke said:
Putting the GFCI in the panel is dumb- but not for the reasons you expect.

Buying just a 2-pole GFCI breaker is likely to cost you about $100. Buying a complete (outdoor) replacement disconnect/ spa panel, including the GFCI breaker, often costs less than $70. Yea, I know, hard to believe - but true.

So ... just swap out disconnects.
Click to expand...

True. The wires in the existing disconnect would not reach the lugs in the Spa Panel. I chose to have fewer splices by leaving the existing disconnect. ;)
 
1793 said:
True. The wires in the existing disconnect would not reach the lugs in the Spa Panel. I chose to have fewer splices by leaving the existing disconnect. ;)
Click to expand...

Plus you are better off with a GFCI inside protected from the elements. You may even have better lightning protection if GFCI breaker is located inside the service panel. Last but not least, some of the Spa Panels on the market look like the GFCI breakers in them are cheaply made.
 
jap said:
Has nothing to do with bonding with me.
Its about checking voltage and if theres a neutral in a disconnect i always provide a disconnect that has a neutral termination point in it and dont like installations where the neutrals are not terminated, run straight through, or wirenuted or splitbolted and taped.
Click to expand...
You are entitled to your opinion, and those points are worth consideration. A taped up split bolt would be more difficult for taking voltage readings, polaris tap not too much of a problem, but adds enough cost that the cheap A/C disconnect isn't quite as cheap anymore, the wire nut isn't that hard to stick your meter probe into the connector to take a reading.

jap said:
Cheezy wiring jobs will never end..:)
Click to expand...
Now I am offended, I spent several years where we had a plant that made cheese as one of our top clients.;)

Ravenvalor said:
Plus you are better off with a GFCI inside protected from the elements. You may even have better lightning protection if GFCI breaker is located inside the service panel. Last but not least, some of the Spa Panels on the market look like the GFCI breakers in them are cheaply made.
Click to expand...
They should be the same GFCI that goes into the same brand panel if that happens to be what the house panel is. I do agree that having the GFCI inside maybe extends the life a little just because it is not out in an environment where condensation is more likley, maybe if you are in the desert southwest this isn't as much of a factor.
 
"Last but not least, some of the Spa Panels on the market look like the GFCI breakers in them are cheaply made"

Balderdash.

While not explained in my earlier post, I was comparing apples to apples - that is, the Square D breaker (alone) with the Square D spa panel, and ditto for Cutler-Hammer. SAME breaker. Period.

Visit the aisles of your local box store and see for yourself.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top