Hot Tub equipotential bonding?

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ritelec

ritelec

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Jersey
Hello all,
Just read a thread on hot tubs, and I'm curious.

Hot tubs are "supposed" to have the perimeter surface equipotential bonding.


I've seen "many" not have it (with passed inspections).

After reading the requirements, I know incorporate it into my install $ (only had a couple estimates on them recently, and may have lost the job because of it ???)

Does everyone here install this perimeter bonding and also the water?


Has anyone NOT installed the bonding grid and bonding as per nec and been knocked down for it or passed without it?


Thank you
 
ritelec said:
Hello all,
Just read a thread on hot tubs, and I'm curious.

Hot tubs are "supposed" to have the perimeter surface equipotential bonding.


I've seen "many" not have it (with passed inspections).

After reading the requirements, I know incorporate it into my install $ (only had a couple estimates on them recently, and may have lost the job because of it ???)

Does everyone here install this perimeter bonding and also the water?


Has anyone NOT installed the bonding grid and bonding as per nec and been knocked down for it or passed without it?


Thank you
Click to expand...

I need to look up the exact section, and this was a problem a while back until they changed things, but I believe somewhere it says something to the effect of not requiring this for a listed packaged spa, possibly with some conditions.

So in general you don't need to worry about it for listed packaged units.
 
kwired said:
I need to look up the exact section, and this was a problem a while back until they changed things, but I believe somewhere it says something to the effect of not requiring this for a listed packaged spa, possibly with some conditions.

So in general you don't need to worry about it for listed packaged units.
Click to expand...

Listed package unit?

Aren't they all listed package units?
I mean, you deliver it, roll it off and drop it down?


Or are you saying a spa or hot tub that someone actually makes, like right there, would need the equipotential?

As said, I'm confused, I thought it was stated that it's needed but I don't see anyone doing it.

Thank you
 
from 2014 680.42(B):

....

Equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces in accordance with 680.26(B)(2) shall not be required to be provided for spas and hot tubs where all of the following conditions apply:

  • The spa or hot tub shall be listed as a self-contained spa for aboveground use.
  • The spa or hot tub shall not be identified as suitable only for indoor use.
  • The installation shall be in accordance with the manufacturer?s instructions and shall be located on or above grade.
  • The top rim of the spa or hot tub shall be at least 710 mm (28 in.) above all perimeter surfaces that are within 760 mm (30 in.), measured horizontally from the spa or hot tub. The height of nonconductive external steps for entry to or exit from the self-contained spa shall not be used to reduce or increase this rim height measurement.
Click to expand...

Entire content quoted there was marked as a change, but not sure what changed as I'm pretty sure same applied in 2011. It may have been an exception and was changed to become part of regular code content maybe.

The bullets in that copy were numbers in the NEC - some reason they copied as bullets:huh:
 
Thanks Dennis.




Question. Hypothetical.
This self contained hot top is sitting on the earth.

28" above grade to rim. no surface bonding.

Someone installs a paver system which is 27" to rim from finished grade. surface bonding required.

Someone installs a wood or plastic deck around hot tub which is closer than 28" from the rim to deck. surface bonding required? If yes, bonding of which surface? ground or deck?



Bonding?
within 30" of the perimeter?

I recently looked at a hot tub. (was going to temp it out to see if it worked as it came with the house the person bought but was never hooked up or running, it leaked so..we'll see)
They placed the tub one foot away from the house walls on two sides and 6" from a deck on the third side (the deck was higher which made it less than the 28" to the rim).
The fourth side was open to the yard.

How/should that tub be surface bonded?
 
ritelec said:
Thanks Dennis.
Click to expand...
You're Welcome but remember this TIA is only good if your state accepted it.


Question. Hypothetical.
This self contained hot top is sitting on the earth.

28" above grade to rim. no surface bonding.

Someone installs a paver system which is 27" to rim from finished grade. surface bonding required.

Someone installs a wood or plastic deck around hot tub which is closer than 28" from the rim to deck. surface bonding required? If yes, bonding of which surface? ground or deck?
Click to expand...

We cannot predict what someone will do years after you are done-- if you worry about it then go ahead and install the epb - it won't hurt. The deck question is not easy to answer as different inspectors see it differently. The code give no exception so IMO in the earth would be the required bonding.


Bonding?
within 30" of the perimeter?
Click to expand...

18-24" from the inside wall of the pool all the way around the tub and 4-6" below subgrade

I recently looked at a hot tub. (was going to temp it out to see if it worked as it came with the house the person bought but was never hooked up or running, it leaked so..we'll see)
They placed the tub one foot away from the house walls on two sides and 6" from a deck on the third side (the deck was higher which made it less than the 28" to the rim).
The fourth side was open to the yard.

How/should that tub be surface bonded?
Click to expand...

i would do the epb as I mentioned above and where you cannot get between 18-24" I would put it as far as possible away from the tub
 
Dennis Alwon said:
If your area has accepted the TIA then here is what it states

http://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/TIA70-11-1.pdf
Click to expand...
That is why the section in 2014 is identified as a change from previous edition. For some reason I had it in my mind the TIA was for the 2008 NEC. I remember the issues brought up with a change and then they came out with a TIA that solved the issue for most installations - just thought it had been longer then it was since that all happened.
 
Packaged, Self-Contained, Factory-built vs. Field-Assembled Hot Tubs

Packaged, Self-Contained, Factory-built vs. Field-Assembled Hot Tubs

Here in CA, most of the electric code is written for field-assembled hot tubs such as in-ground or in-deck systems that are assembled from UL Recognized components. These installations are considered 'real property' because they are permanently attached to the structure and may require home improvement contracts for some repairs. The bonding requirements for these installations are the same for swimming pools unless a fiberglass shell is involved.

"Packaged", "Listed", "Self-contained", "Factory-built" tubs are considered 'personal property' because they are not permanently attached and can 'easily' be removed. These are treated more like self-contained appliances.

Unfortunately, Section 680 doesn't do a very good job differentiating between self-contained/factory-built hot tubs and in-ground/in-deck field-assembled hot tubs. When in doubt, think of the self-contained hot tub like any other permanently attached appliance with the important exception that you fill it with water, connect it to 220V and then sit in it.

Most self-contained, factory-built tubs won't have any metal surfaces on the outside large enough to require bonding or they would not pass UL certification. Everything inside a self-contained tub should already be bonded together unless exempt (double-insulated motors).

However, I do believe a self-contained hot tub within so many feet of a swimming pool should be bonded to the pool grid just so both bodies of water are absolutely at the same potential. If the perimeter fence that is not connected to electricity must be bonded, it makes sense the hot tub connected to 220V should be bonded to the pool grid even if there are no metal parts on the outside of the hot tub.
 
HotTubTips said:
Here in CA, most of the electric code is written for field-assembled hot tubs such as in-ground or in-deck systems that are assembled from UL Recognized components. These installations are considered 'real property' because they are permanently attached to the structure and may require home improvement contracts for some repairs. The bonding requirements for these installations are the same for swimming pools unless a fiberglass shell is involved.

"Packaged", "Listed", "Self-contained", "Factory-built" tubs are considered 'personal property' because they are not permanently attached and can 'easily' be removed. These are treated more like self-contained appliances.

Unfortunately, Section 680 doesn't do a very good job differentiating between self-contained/factory-built hot tubs and in-ground/in-deck field-assembled hot tubs. When in doubt, think of the self-contained hot tub like any other permanently attached appliance with the important exception that you fill it with water, connect it to 220V and then sit in it.

Most self-contained, factory-built tubs won't have any metal surfaces on the outside large enough to require bonding or they would not pass UL certification. Everything inside a self-contained tub should already be bonded together unless exempt (double-insulated motors).

However, I do believe a self-contained hot tub within so many feet of a swimming pool should be bonded to the pool grid just so both bodies of water are absolutely at the same potential. If the perimeter fence that is not connected to electricity must be bonded, it makes sense the hot tub connected to 220V should be bonded to the pool grid even if there are no metal parts on the outside of the hot tub.
Click to expand...
NEC refers to the self contained units as "Self-Contained Spa or Hot Tub" and has a definition in 680.2, how much more differentiating do they need?

If it is near a pool the self contained hot tub may not need to be bonded to the pool to meet code but the pool would need to be bonded to the hot tub. Same result, different reason why it is required.
 
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