Hot Tub GFCI Question

[Greg Swartz]

Ok,
I just got a call from the Hot Tub company we work with all the time...

Most of their hot tubs use a 20A / 30A split system. Each breaker is a GFCI breaker.
Apparently, today, they went to service one of their tubs, and the "electrician buddy" who hooked up the tub (without a permit) used a regular 20A and 30A breaker, but put a 50A GFCI breaker in the main panel.

They asked me if this is OK.
Part of me says "yes." Part of me is screaming "NO!"

Why yes?
Well, electrically, putting the GFCI upstream should be no different than having 2 individual GFCI breakers.

Why no?
I really don't know...
I know the manufacturer will not warranty it, and that it does not follow manufacturer guidelines. But other than that???

Give me some feedback please! :?

 

[GoldDigger]

The only thing that comes to mind is that if there is a fault *between* the two circuits that energizes the water or produces a touch potential the single GFCI will not see it and trip, while the separate breakers would.

Tapatalk!

 

[jim dungar]

I know the manufacturer will not warranty it, and that it does not follow manufacturer guidelines. But other than that???

How do you know that?
What reason would they have to deny it?

GFCI protection was provided for the circuit. Individual branch circuit protective devices were supplied.

 

[iwire]

When the NEC requires GFCI protection it does not specify if it must be at the branch circuit level or at the main.

Either would comply with the NEC.

However if the listing and labeling of the tub specifies branch circuit GFCIs an argument can be made that 110.3(B) requires those instructions must be followed.

 

[iwire]

The only thing that comes to mind is that if there is a fault *between* the two circuits that energizes the water or produces a touch potential the single GFCI will not see it and trip, while the separate breakers would.

Not following you.

 

[GoldDigger]

It is not a high probability thing at all, but imagine a fault from heater to water and a fault of opposite phase of pump to water. Result would be current from one circuit to the other through the water without necessarily enough net current to the EGC or earth to trip the single GFI.
I am not saying it is likely to happen, just that it is a difference between the two setups.
Just as likely ( unlikely) I suppose would be a line-to-line fault on one of the circuits through the water which would not trip a single circuit GFI either.


Tapatalk!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The only article that may affect this is 680.23(A)(3) where it is required to have gfci protection in the branch circuit supplying luminaires. I am assuming the tub has a light and since the 50 amp GFCI is a feeder then it could be considered a violation

 

[iwire]

The only article that may affect this is 680.23(A)(3) where it is required to have gfci protection in the branch circuit supplying luminaires. I am assuming the tub has a light and since the 50 amp GFCI is a feeder then it could be considered a violation

That is an interesting point, I stand corrected.

 

[kwired]

It is not a high probability thing at all, but imagine a fault from heater to water and a fault of opposite phase of pump to water. Result would be current from one circuit to the other through the water without necessarily enough net current to the EGC or earth to trip the single GFI.
I am not saying it is likely to happen, just that it is a difference between the two setups.
Just as likely ( unlikely) I suppose would be a line-to-line fault on one of the circuits through the water which would not trip a single circuit GFI either.


Tapatalk!

Chances are that fault does leak some current to ground, making that probability even lower.

The only article that may affect this is 680.23(A)(3) where it is required to have gfci protection in the branch circuit supplying luminaires. I am assuming the tub has a light and since the 50 amp GFCI is a feeder then it could be considered a violation

I see that as a violation as it is worded, I also see that may be a situation that could come up that they did not intend this to apply to when it was written, after all that is in section II "permanently installed pools" of 680 and covers more than just spa's, but section IV on spa's sends us back to section II for anything not addressed in section IV.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The only article that may affect this is 680.23(A)(3) where it is required to have gfci protection in the branch circuit supplying luminaires. I am assuming the tub has a light and since the 50 amp GFCI is a feeder then it could be considered a violation

On a standard hot tub where there is a 50 amp circuit that feeds the tub then I can see the gfci in the remote panel as long as the disconnect for the tub does not have overcurrent protective device.

I really think the definition of feeder should not include where one piece of equipment is being fed. Theoretically I could down size a neutral to the tub disconnect, install a gfci and then be required to use a full sized neutral. Not sure if there is a section that would permit it based on the conductors feeding the tub not needing to be larger than the feeder conductors-- I have not seen that but perhaps someone else has.

 

[kwired]

On a standard hot tub where there is a 50 amp circuit that feeds the tub then I can see the gfci in the remote panel as long as the disconnect for the tub does not have overcurrent protective device.

I really think the definition of feeder should not include where one piece of equipment is being fed. Theoretically I could down size a neutral to the tub disconnect, install a gfci and then be required to use a full sized neutral. Not sure if there is a section that would permit it based on the conductors feeding the tub not needing to be larger than the feeder conductors-- I have not seen that but perhaps someone else has.

Or at least where it supplies a listed piece of equipment like a packaged spa. IMO if the packaged spa has overcurrent devices on it they are supplemental devices and as long as there is only one supply circuit it is a branch circuit and not a feeder. Now a spa panel next to the spa, that is not a part of the spa, that has multiple circuits running to the spa - is supplied with a feeder.

 

[growler]

the "electrician buddy" who hooked up the tub (without a permit) used a regular 20A and 30A breaker, but put a 50A GFCI breaker in the main panel.

How do you know that?
What reason would they have to deny it?

GFCI protection was provided for the circuit. Individual branch circuit protective devices were supplied.

I personally don't see anything wrong with the install but I can't make that call even if I was there to inspect the job.

Only those with authority in that jurisdiction can choose to OK this install as being legal.

Can a manufacturer require that their equipment be professionally and legally installed before providing any warranty? I would think they can if it is stated as a condition of warranty.

 

[jim dungar]

Can a manufacturer require that their equipment be professionally and legally installed before providing any warranty? I would think they can if it is stated as a condition of warranty.

The OP specifically said the warranty, in this case, would not be honored. I simply asked how he knew.

 

[HotTubTips]

Q

Q

The only tubs that use 20/30 breakers are made by Watkins (Hot Springs, Tiger River, Caldera, etc).

The factory ships each new tub with a disconnect/breaker panel that contains two GFCI breakers. The box and both GFCI breakers are an integral part of the tub.

The wiring instructions in the manual require use of the supplied panel and breakers. If you don't use the factory supplied breakers, you are modifying the 'appliance', ignoring the manufacturer instructions and voiding the UL listing for the packaged unit.

Somewhere in the NEC there is a short, little statement that says: 'follow manufacturer instructions'.

Odds are: no inspector on the planet will catch this unless they are familiar with Watkins tubs. I would note the discrepancy in writing if I were called out to repair the tub but I would consider it safe.

The post that suggests a short between the two separate circuits inside the tub sounds like a valid concern; The total current through both sides of a single breaker would remain the same if the short were between the separate circuits inside the tub....

However, (assuming the last repair tech put everything back together properly) both circuit boards in the control box at the tub are grounded to a back plate that is bonded to the pump, heater and anything else electrical. The stainless steel heater serves as a current collector that grounds the water. The only place both circuits are anywhere near each other is on the Heater Relay Board (input connection to the tub).

When the Heater Relay Board on these tubs fails, it usually blows a hole in the board, blows solder everywhere and even melts the back of the control box a little. Even when they smoke, it's about 50/50 on whether the smoked board trips a GFCI even when they are correctly wired to the factory supplied, separate breakers.

Both circuits connect at the blue terminal. One branch feeds the heater which connects directly to this board. The other branch feeds the RED, WHITE, BLACK spade terminals in the middle of the board which connect the other branch to the main circuit board and the pumps. The risk of a short between the circuits is probably minimal.

However, if something goes wrong (shock, electrocution, fire) you'll have to justify (probably in court) why you didn't follow the manufacturer's very explicit instructions or use the panel and breakers supplied by the factory with every new tub....

I'm not an electrician. I'm not a lawyer. Guess which group I would invite to a BBQ...

 

[kwired]

The only tubs that use 20/30 breakers are made by Watkins (Hot Springs, Tiger River, Caldera, etc).

The factory ships each new tub with a disconnect/breaker panel that contains two GFCI breakers. The box and both GFCI breakers are an integral part of the tub.

The wiring instructions in the manual require use of the supplied panel and breakers. If you don't use the factory supplied breakers, you are modifying the 'appliance', ignoring the manufacturer instructions and voiding the UL listing for the packaged unit.

Somewhere in the NEC there is a short, little statement that says: 'follow manufacturer instructions'.

Odds are: no inspector on the planet will catch this unless they are familiar with Watkins tubs. I would note the discrepancy in writing if I were called out to repair the tub but I would consider it safe.

The post that suggests a short between the two separate circuits inside the tub sounds like a valid concern; The total current through both sides of a single breaker would remain the same if the short were between the separate circuits inside the tub....

However, (assuming the last repair tech put everything back together properly) both circuit boards in the control box at the tub are grounded to a back plate that is bonded to the pump, heater and anything else electrical. The stainless steel heater serves as a current collector that grounds the water. The only place both circuits are anywhere near each other is on the Heater Relay Board (input connection to the tub).

When the Heater Relay Board on these tubs fails, it usually blows a hole in the board, blows solder everywhere and even melts the back of the control box a little. Even when they smoke, it's about 50/50 on whether the smoked board trips a GFCI even when they are correctly wired to the factory supplied, separate breakers.
View attachment 9774
Both circuits connect at the blue terminal. One branch feeds the heater which connects directly to this board. The other branch feeds the RED, WHITE, BLACK spade terminals in the middle of the board which connect the other branch to the main circuit board and the pumps. The risk of a short between the circuits is probably minimal.

However, if something goes wrong (shock, electrocution, fire) you'll have to justify (probably in court) why you didn't follow the manufacturer's very explicit instructions or use the panel and breakers supplied by the factory with every new tub....

I'm not an electrician. I'm not a lawyer. Guess which group I would invite to a BBQ...

Now say it is installed according to instructions, and that panel/breakers in question fails or is damaged and someone is called to fix it that has no idea it is "part of the listed spa"? IMO if they want to include these devices in the listing they need to be within the equipment. Then we also have to ask about the wiring between the panel and the spa, and how it is covered in the listing? That is something that is certainly going to be a little different in each and every installation.

 

[HotTubTips]

Now say it is installed according to instructions, and that panel/breakers in question fails or is damaged and someone is called to fix it that has no idea it is "part of the listed spa"? IMO if they want to include these devices in the listing they need to be within the equipment. Then we also have to ask about the wiring between the panel and the spa, and how it is covered in the listing? That is something that is certainly going to be a little different in each and every installation.

Watkins is the only manufacturer I know of that provides the breakers in a disconnect panel. Some Master Spas have a panel and GFCI inside the cabinet of the tub. A few tubs still have the GFCI built into the control box.

All I'm saying is: If somebody wires this tub any way other than the very specific instructions in the owner's manual and on the inside cover of the control box... They should be very certain the tub is still absolutely safe and be ready to back up the decision.

If anything ever goes wrong (fire, shock, electrocution) you own all the liability if you chose to ignore the manufacturer's instructions. I refuse to work on two or three tubs every month because they are such an imminent fire or shock hazard that I secure the breaker and take a geo-tag photo to prove I turned it off before I left.

 

[kwired]

Watkins is the only manufacturer I know of that provides the breakers in a disconnect panel. Some Master Spas have a panel and GFCI inside the cabinet of the tub. A few tubs still have the GFCI built into the control box.

All I'm saying is: If somebody wires this tub any way other than the very specific instructions in the owner's manual and on the inside cover of the control box... They should be very certain the tub is still absolutely safe and be ready to back up the decision.

If anything ever goes wrong (fire, shock, electrocution) you own all the liability if you chose to ignore the manufacturer's instructions. I refuse to work on two or three tubs every month because they are such an imminent fire or shock hazard that I secure the breaker and take a geo-tag photo to prove I turned it off before I left.
View attachment 9778

With today's photo editing software and ease of use by so many do photo's really provide sufficient evidence of anything anymore?

One must be able to prove or disprove the authenticity of the photo. Not saying you should stop the practice of taking those photos, but am saying that it still may not be enough at times, or may not be as simple of evidence as you may have hoped.

 

[mwm1752]

The only article that may affect this is 680.23(A)(3) where it is required to have gfci protection in the branch circuit supplying luminaires. I am assuming the tub has a light and since the 50 amp GFCI is a feeder then it could be considered a violation

only if the hot tub is exterior will part 2 apply -- 680.44 could be applicable

 

[Dennis Alwon]

only if the hot tub is exterior will part 2 apply -- 680.44 could be applicable

I have seldom seen hot tubs indoors-however I am not sure what 680.44 has to do with what I stated. 680.43 requires an indoor installation to follow part II with exceptions. I do not see where the requirement for the gfci to be in the branch circuit is lifted for indoor installs.

 

[mwm1752]

I have seldom seen hot tubs indoors-however I am not sure what 680.44 has to do with what I stated. 680.43 requires an indoor installation to follow part II with exceptions. I do not see where the requirement for the gfci to be in the branch circuit is lifted for indoor installs.

But you have seen them indoors & the OP did not specify the location. a feeder protecting both branch circuits should be compliant, a ground fault in the circuit should trip any upstream protection. Mine is indoors great for plants