Hot Tub gfci tripping

[olly]

I wired a used hot tub that supposedly worked before they bought it. I did land the load side neutral on the gfci breaker so that's not the problem. When I lift the phases off of the hot tub lugs the Gfi holds. Is that enough to tell me that it has nothing to do with my wiring?

What else could I do to prove that my wiring is not the reason the GFCI is tripping?

Thank you.

 

[growler]

When I lift the phases off of the hot tub lugs the Gfi holds. Is that enough to tell me that it has nothing to do with my wiring?

What else could I do to prove that my wiring is not the reason the GFCI is tripping?

What you are doing is good enough for me but homeowners can be more demanding.

I would double check my wiring (any of us can make a mistake) and then have them (owners) call a service tech for this equipment.

When the service guy/gal finds whatever is the problem this will clear your wiring for the owner.

 

[mopowr steve]

Probably one of the key reasons for a GFCI tripping on a hot tub is the heating element needs replaced or at least check to see if there is water laying on the terminations of the water heater.
second would be checking the motor.

Some models have pin connectors that can be easily unplugged until the issue goes away leaving you with the cause.

The previous location may not have had it connected to a GFCI.

 

[Jraef]

Probably one of the key reasons for a GFCI tripping on a hot tub is the heating element needs replaced or at least check to see if there is water laying on the terminations of the water heater.
second would be checking the motor.

Some models have pin connectors that can be easily unplugged until the issue goes away leaving you with the cause.

The previous location may not have had it connected to a GFCI.

+1
The heating elements have a ceramic coating and over time, the chlorine makes it more brittle than when it was new. When you drain it and move it, even a tiny hairline crack in that ceramic from the jostling and vibration of moving it means the raw heater elements are shorting into the water and the GFCI is doing it's job, keeping them from being fried when they get in.

The test, if you want to prove it, is to open up the spa control panel and you will likely see fuses feeding the heater elements. Pull the fuses, flip on the breaker and if it holds, that was the problem. Nothing you could have done would cause that, it was the consequence of hooking up a used hot tub. That's the risk they took. The heater elements are likely $40-50 for good ones, but the labor to install them is horrendous. Let a spa guy do it, because it involves undoing some plumbing elements and if you put it back together just a little bit wrong and flood the control panel, you own it all.

Here's an example of a spa control panel guts, you can see that it is attached to a tube, inside of which is the heater element. You can get that out, but it's a royal PITA, trust me. I will never do it again.
This one only has one fuse, likely a 120V spa, the fuse is on the right side, right above the white 3 pole terminal block.

 

[Ponchik]

What you are doing is good enough for me but homeowners can be more demanding.

I would double check my wiring (any of us can make a mistake) and then have them (owners) call a service tech for this equipment.

When the service guy/gal finds whatever is the problem this will clear your wiring for the owner.

Agree with Growler.

Go one step further, disconnect your leads from the tub, hook up a heavy resistive load to the conductors and prove that the GFCI holds.

I will also recommend you be there with the hot tub service tech when they troubleshoot the hot tub. Just in case they start talking smack about your install you will be there to defend.

 

[kwired]

Agree with Growler.

Go one step further, disconnect your leads from the tub, hook up a heavy resistive load to the conductors and prove that the GFCI holds.

I will also recommend you be there with the hot tub service tech when they troubleshoot the hot tub. Just in case they start talking smack about your install you will be there to defend.

That is just more time you need to spend there that customer isn't likely wanting to pay you for. Be a professional, determine that the element is where the ground fault is, disconnecting elements and having GFCI hold is a good indication, connecting a megger to that element and the heater case will also verify.

If spa guy thinks it is something else and they throw this back to you, put the element in yourself, but don't purchase it from the same spa guy they hired, and prove you are a professional.

Then charge them like a professional.

 

[Ponchik]

That is just more time you need to spend there that customer isn't likely wanting to pay you for. Be a professional, determine that the element is where the ground fault is, disconnecting elements and having GFCI hold is a good indication, connecting a megger to that element and the heater case will also verify.

If spa guy thinks it is something else and they throw this back to you, put the element in yourself, but don't purchase it from the same spa guy they hired, and prove you are a professional.

Then charge them like a professional.

IMO, the responsibility of the electrician stops at the terminals. If the OP tries to change the heater and something else goes wrong (or something else is broken that he does not know yet) then he will be blamed for it. Then he is out of the cost of the heater and his time.

 

[K8MHZ]

This problem is very, very common with used hot tubs. You can pretty much warn a customer ahead of time that the great deal they got on the hot tub will likely turn into a money pit chasing ground faults and leaks. It is a rarity that a used or free tub works correctly when it is connected. The heating elements are the usual culprits for ground faults.

 

[kwired]

IMO, the responsibility of the electrician stops at the terminals. If the OP tries to change the heater and something else goes wrong (or something else is broken that he does not know yet) then he will be blamed for it. Then he is out of the cost of the heater and his time.

If you want to take that approach that is fine, you still need to be firm that there is a problem in the tub and not your premises wiring. Most hot tubs that trip GFCI usually end up being heater element problems.

I find myself diagnosing other then electrical problems all the time, if it is tripping a breaker, GFCI, overload, sometimes you need to at least be able to tell them why, otherwise it appears to the customer that it is an electrical problem so they think the electrician is who is going to fix it. I have had numerous motor overload tripping issues that customers thought I would do some electrical magic and make it stop. Most of the time there is an issue with the driven load and if it is simply the fact they are pushing the machine too hard they don't necessarily like to hear that.

 

[growler]

If spa guy thinks it is something else and they throw this back to you, put the element in yourself, but don't purchase it from the same spa guy they hired, and prove you are a professional.

Anything that hot tub tech can't change out and sell himself is on the line side of that GFCI breaker/disconnect.

Why would he want to throw it back on the electrician, this is a gold mine?

If I were to meet the tech I would give him a card and ask if he would toss me an install where the owners want a permit. If so when I install another used tub the business comes his way.

 

[kwired]

Anything that hot tub tech can't change out and sell himself is on the line side of that GFCI breaker/disconnect.

Why would he want to throw it back on the electrician, this is a gold mine?

If I were to meet the tech I would give him a card and ask if he would toss me an install where the owners want a permit. If so when I install another used tub the business comes his way.

A good hot tub tech should know that majority of GFCI trip incidents is usually the heater element.

I have had many other "appliance guys" however that have no clue what GFCI is all about, have told owner to call an electrician because the GFCI must be defective, and I usually end up telling them what part is faulted and that the GFCI is just doing it's job. I may or may not replace the part depending on circumstances. Refrigerators/freezers in garages or unfinished basements is where this happens the most. The appliance guy plugs it into extension cord from a non GFCI outlet and it works - concludes it must be the GFCI:huh:

 

[growler]

If spa guy thinks it is something else and they throw this back to you, put the element in yourself, but don't purchase it from the same spa guy they hired, and prove you are a professional.

Then charge them like a professional.

When a plumber or an HVAC Tech starts doing electrical work would you consider that as being professional?

To prove you are a professional on a hut tub install you pull a permit and have the work inspected and then leave the tub to the professionals. I will only guarantee a safe and code compliant install and not that a used tub will work.

 

[Ponchik]

If you want to take that approach that is fine, you still need to be firm that there is a problem in the tub and not your premises wiring. Most hot tubs that trip GFCI usually end up being heater element problems. I do my own testing on the circuit conductors as I had mentioned in my earlier post. That makes my installation good and makes me being FIRM.

I find myself diagnosing other then electrical problems all the time, if it is tripping a breaker, GFCI, overload, sometimes you need to at least be able to tell them why, otherwise it appears to the customer that it is an electrical problem so they think the electrician is who is going to fix it. I have had numerous motor overload tripping issues that customers thought I would do some electrical magic and make it stop. Most of the time there is an issue with the driven load and if it is simply the fact they are pushing the machine too hard they don't necessarily like to hear that.

<< I agree with you. I had to troubleshoot circuit that turned out to be a pump that was plugged in once in while.

A good hot tub tech should know that majority of GFCI trip incidents is usually the heater element.

I have had many other "appliance guys" however that >>>have no clue what GFCI is all about<<<, have told owner to call an electrician because the GFCI must be defective, and I usually end up telling them what part is faulted and that the GFCI is just doing it's job. I may or may not replace the part depending on circumstances. Refrigerators/freezers in garages or unfinished basements is where this happens the most. The appliance guy plugs it into extension cord from a non GFCI outlet and it works - concludes it must be the GFCI:huh:

Your comments apply to the OP situation as well and this is exactly my point. They will troubleshoot and will blame it on the OP wiring. It has nothing to do with selling a heater to the customer. The OP needs to be present when the tech troubleshoots the hot tub to defend his installation.

 

[growler]

The OP needs to be present when the tech troubleshoots the hot tub to defend his installation.

There is always a chance that the tech they send out to troubleshoot will be either stupid or lazy and try to blame the problem on the installation.

This is not the guy needed to work on this problem. If he is not familiar enough with these units to know about the heating elements and other causes of a GFCI tripping they need to call another company.

I wouldn't be there because you are never going to get paid for all this extra time and I don't like giving time away.

 

[kwired]

I wouldn't be there because you are never going to get paid for all this extra time and I don't like giving time away.

Same thought here. If I am coming back we are solving the problem, even if I have to find the problem while hot tub tech watches. Customer is more likely willing to pay the guy that knew what was going on before the guy that was clueless, even if he cost more.