Hot tub heater kit

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JoeNorm

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I have a client that wants a "heater kit" installed in a barrel style hot tub. The website states that each component is individually UL listed but not as a complete kit. Is this a red flag?

It consists of a heater, pump, and a timer style control unit that are housed in a cedar box. Sold by what appears to be a reputable company online.

Thanks
 
This not a packaged spa unit?

Non packaged spas need something for this as well, you may have come across such items?
 
kwired said:
This not a packaged spa unit?

Non packaged spas need something for this as well, you may have come across such items?
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I'm not quite sure what you mean. Article 680 is not easy to wade through and I am not sure how to classify this unit(s)
 
I would be concerned from a liability standpoint. Art 680 Part IV calls for installations to meet Part I requirements which, in 680.4, calls for "listed" equipment. A configuration of listed components does not constitute a "listed" assembly and, considering the nature of the equipment, there is a potential liability,
 
augie47 said:
I would be concerned from a liability standpoint. Art 680 Part IV calls for installations to meet Part I requirements which, in 680.4, calls for "listed" equipment. A configuration of listed components does not constitute a "listed" assembly and, considering the nature of the equipment, there is a potential liability,
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I have concern as well. It's sometimes hard to know when to draw the line. I am sure hundreds of these are installed every year by homeowners and electricians alike.
 
augie47 said:
I would be concerned from a liability standpoint. Art 680 Part IV calls for installations to meet Part I requirements which, in 680.4, calls for "listed" equipment. A configuration of listed components does not constitute a "listed" assembly and, considering the nature of the equipment, there is a potential liability,
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Which is part of why I asked if this is not a packaged spa. A packaged spa ordinarily has all needed components already within and is listed as a unit, possibly with some listed options.

But a built on site or non packaged spa would be where you either utilize several listed components and assemble it in the field or maybe even purchase some assembly like in OP that may not be listed as an assembly but potentially can still made up of all the same listed components?
 
JoeNorm said:
I have concern as well. It's sometimes hard to know when to draw the line.
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Regardless of listings or electrical permit with inspection, home insurance policy historically excluded hot tubs among other building accessories, for trip & fall hazard.

If the DIY can get a contractor's GL policy on record for touching the hazard, then any claims against the hazard can attach that GL policy to save owners from liability.

When my GL policy is invited to fix power failures or hazards, a forensic report follows within a day.

My invoice describes each abatement by code section w/ listed material SKU's, stamped photos, and recommendations beyond the scope of my qualification or license.

These records will be provided during any claims process.

JoeNorm said:
I am sure hundreds of these are installed every year by homeowners and electricians alike.
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Most of these will be hacks that don't carry GL insurance, change phone numbers, and go AWAL if their work is involved in a casualty.
 
kwired said:
Which is part of why I asked if this is not a packaged spa. A packaged spa ordinarily has all needed components already within and is listed as a unit, possibly with some listed options.

But a built on site or non packaged spa would be where you either utilize several listed components and assemble it in the field or maybe even purchase some assembly like in OP that may not be listed as an assembly but potentially can still made up of all the same listed components?
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It says right on the website that all the parts are UL listed but not as a whole unit and to check with local guidelines before purchasing.

Maybe it's a matter of checking with my AHJ first? I don't want to be overly conservative but I definitely don't want to take on major liability over a project like this.
 
All they are saying is that all the parts are UL listed but that does not make the product listed. My understanding is that the install would not be compliant. I bet @don_resqcapt19 would know
 
Dennis Alwon said:
All they are saying is that all the parts are UL listed but that does not make the product listed. My understanding is that the install would not be compliant. I bet @don_resqcapt19 would know
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How this not any different than building your own industrial control panel with listed components even if you are not a UL approved panel shop?

Listed panel - install per listing/instructions.

Not listed panel - build according to NEC requirements, or any other code that may apply. Someone else just happened to build it but if it still complies with NEC, including use of listed components and within the listing requirements of said components, then there shouldn't be a problem.
What you technically can't do here without an overall listing on the thing is to use components that are only UL recognized.
 
JoeNorm said:
It says right on the website that all the parts are UL listed but not as a whole unit and to check with local guidelines before purchasing.
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The UL reps at IAEI meetings solicit its members to bring samples of all UL labels they encounter.

The UL hologram product label that required a filter decoder was defeated by Chinese counterfeits within 1 year.

JoeNorm said:
The website states that each component is individually UL listed but not as a complete kit. Is this a red flag?
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If your supplier runs their office from the internet or Amazon, you better learn how to vaporize along with them when needed.
 
ramsy said:
The UL reps at IAEI meetings solicit its members to bring samples of all UL labels they encounter.

The UL hologram product label that required a filter decoder was defeated by Chinese counterfeits within 1 year.



If your supplier runs their office from the internet or Amazon, you better learn how to vaporize along with them when needed.
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Homeowner purchased unit
 
How is this any different that a self made spa next to a pool? The NRTL listed pump, heater, and timer would all be installed separately when building a pool and no one lists the pool as a complete entity. Don't see how a tub is any different than a small pool as long as you install each item per its listing instructions. Only other gotcha is what it is listed as. It may need to be under some pool listing and not house heater or misc pump.

Here in WA, anything electric over 50V is required to be NRTL listed. I would think it would even fly here to install each item separately as long as each is truely listed and not a Recognized Component. If you had an unlisted piece, or had to violate some install instructions, then you would need to have an approved Field Evaluation Body bless the completed assembly.
 
suemarkp said:
..it would even fly here to install each item separately as long as each is truely listed and not a Recognized Component.
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Checking the UL file number would clarify that. Maybe someone can show the heater information?

suemarkp said:
If you had an unlisted piece, or had to violate some install instructions, then you would need to have an approved Field Evaluation Body bless the completed assembly.
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Maybe not, if there's a record of another customer doing that before?
 
There is a WAC rule (Wa state code) on hot tubs dating back 20 + years, as when hot tubs became popular, there were many that were not listed. You might might look at that rule, 296-46B section 690
 
They are just giving a package price for buying the 3 separate components together. It does not appear they are providing any wiring of the equipment. No different then going to a pool supply and buying a heater, pump and timer on the same invoice. Field wiring to NEC requirements is the responsibility of the installer.
 
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