I have a hot tub to install on a deck and had a question about the type of cable to use. The deck is sitting low to the ground with no way to get under it with out tearing it up, if I'm interpretting the code correctly 680.42(C) allows me to use NM cable for this purpose as long as it contains a copper EGC and goes to the Panel in the house. Is this a correct interpretation?
Hot tub installation on a deck
- Thread starter l_zabel
- Start date
- Status
dcl34769
Senior Member
- Location
- saint cloud,fl
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
I would use type UF cable because of the wet location listing, type NM is for dry location.
type UF art.340.10(3)
type NM art.334.10(A)(1) & art.334.12(A)(10)d
make sure that your D/C is at least 5' away from the inside wall of the spa.
I would use type UF cable because of the wet location listing, type NM is for dry location.
type UF art.340.10(3)
type NM art.334.10(A)(1) & art.334.12(A)(10)d
make sure that your D/C is at least 5' away from the inside wall of the spa.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
I would respectfully disagree. Hot Tubs & Spas fall under the same rules as Swimming Pools-- mostly-- but there are ADDITIONAL requirements for Hot Tubs & Spas that go beyond those for a pool.
Is this going to be hardwired or plug-and-cord? Does the equipment package already include GFCI protection? Is there an equipment package? Is the package integral or skid-mounted? Is the heater electrical or gas?
I would respectfully disagree. Hot Tubs & Spas fall under the same rules as Swimming Pools-- mostly-- but there are ADDITIONAL requirements for Hot Tubs & Spas that go beyond those for a pool.
Is this going to be hardwired or plug-and-cord? Does the equipment package already include GFCI protection? Is there an equipment package? Is the package integral or skid-mounted? Is the heater electrical or gas?
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
Thanks, after looking into it a little further last night I agree that UF cable is probably the better way to go I was looking at NMC, but will go with UF. As for GFCI I already knew that was a requirement and that I try to hard wire if I can, one less trouble spot. I also was going to forego the Emergency disconnect because it is not required for single family dwelling units, however this is a household with children and the small added cost is more than justified in my opinion.
Thanks, after looking into it a little further last night I agree that UF cable is probably the better way to go I was looking at NMC, but will go with UF. As for GFCI I already knew that was a requirement and that I try to hard wire if I can, one less trouble spot. I also was going to forego the Emergency disconnect because it is not required for single family dwelling units, however this is a household with children and the small added cost is more than justified in my opinion.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
If you won't answer basic questions, let's turn this around:
Please furnish the citation that says it's OK for you to use NM-B or to use UF on a hot-tub/spa install.
Your answer will help me too.
Thanks!
../Wayne C.
If you won't answer basic questions, let's turn this around:
Please furnish the citation that says it's OK for you to use NM-B or to use UF on a hot-tub/spa install.
Your answer will help me too.
Thanks!
../Wayne C.
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
Wayne:
Steve
Wayne:
Just to clairify: I assume you are refering to 680.40: "Electrical installations at spas and hot tubs shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part IV of this article". I assume this means they do not have to comply with Part II: Permanently Installed Pools or part III: Storable Pools.
Steve
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
Yep. Righto. Mostly.
Just to clarify the above statement: The mostly part refers to the fact that hot-tubs/spas mostly adhere to the swimming pool citations, plus a few more that are hot-tub/spa specific.
Steve66: Your comment is 100% agreed. No mostly there
../Wayne C.
[ September 24, 2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
Yep. Righto. Mostly.
Just to clarify the above statement: The mostly part refers to the fact that hot-tubs/spas mostly adhere to the swimming pool citations, plus a few more that are hot-tub/spa specific.
Steve66: Your comment is 100% agreed. No mostly there
../Wayne C.
[ September 24, 2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
l_zabel,
You cannot use UF cable or an NM cable assembly for direct connection to an Outdoor Hot Tub (see 680.21(A))and you must have a disconnect switch (680.12) within sight regardless of occupancy. This is not the same as an Emergency switch.
Please sit down with the local Inspector and tell them what you are trying to do. They will be able to tell you what you can and cannot do.
Bill
(edited to clarify that UF and NM not permitted)
[ September 25, 2003, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: bill addiss ]
l_zabel,
You cannot use UF cable or an NM cable assembly for direct connection to an Outdoor Hot Tub (see 680.21(A))and you must have a disconnect switch (680.12) within sight regardless of occupancy. This is not the same as an Emergency switch.
Please sit down with the local Inspector and tell them what you are trying to do. They will be able to tell you what you can and cannot do.
Bill
(edited to clarify that UF and NM not permitted)
[ September 25, 2003, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: bill addiss ]
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
One of the confuseing things about this is that the CMP's left wording in 680.42 (C) that even discribes hooking the UF to the " Motor or heater"
How can you hook to the motor or heater without going outside? and if they didn't want this then why did they put this in the artical for hot tubs?
Or is just some more erta?
(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub, or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly . Wiring to an underwater light shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.
One of the confuseing things about this is that the CMP's left wording in 680.42 (C) that even discribes hooking the UF to the " Motor or heater"
How can you hook to the motor or heater without going outside? and if they didn't want this then why did they put this in the artical for hot tubs?
Or is just some more erta?
(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub, or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly . Wiring to an underwater light shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.
bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
hurk,
You'll get no argument from me on that. It is confusing. It does say Interior twice though so I think the intent seems to come through, .... er, Right?
Bill
[ September 23, 2003, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: bill addiss ]
hurk,
You'll get no argument from me on that. It is confusing. It does say Interior twice though so I think the intent seems to come through, .... er, Right?
Bill
[ September 23, 2003, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: bill addiss ]
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
Okay the question at first was what cable to use, now it seems to have gotten more complicated. This is a prepackaged permanently installed hottub with terminals for cable attachments, connections have already been made to the motor, heaters so forth. The home owners was told simply to supply it with a 30 amp GFCI circuit only, no mention was was of a emergency switch or local disconnect, not that they are electricians or anything. The hottub has a disconnecting means with the package. So the question that was asked at the beginning was does 680.42(C) allow you to use NM or UF cable, not do I need a disconnect or emergency switch or anything else. According to 680.41 says no safety switch is required for single family dwellings, however believing in safety first I agreed that I should include an emergency cutout. What is the intent of 680.42(C) I thought it was clear, maybe as clear as mud, huh?
[ September 24, 2003, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: l_zabel ]
Okay the question at first was what cable to use, now it seems to have gotten more complicated. This is a prepackaged permanently installed hottub with terminals for cable attachments, connections have already been made to the motor, heaters so forth. The home owners was told simply to supply it with a 30 amp GFCI circuit only, no mention was was of a emergency switch or local disconnect, not that they are electricians or anything. The hottub has a disconnecting means with the package. So the question that was asked at the beginning was does 680.42(C) allow you to use NM or UF cable, not do I need a disconnect or emergency switch or anything else. According to 680.41 says no safety switch is required for single family dwellings, however believing in safety first I agreed that I should include an emergency cutout. What is the intent of 680.42(C) I thought it was clear, maybe as clear as mud, huh?
[ September 24, 2003, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: l_zabel ]
bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
l_zabel,
You mentioned the disconnect wasn't needed. I just wanted to correct you on that point.
680.41 refers to an Emergency Switch which is different than a disconnect switch. The Emergency switch is only there to turn off the recirculation system (say in the event that someone got their hair caught in an intake) it does not necessarily kill the power. The disconnect required in 680.12 is a "Maintenance" disconnect and does kill all the power to the unit so that it can be serviced safely.
680.42(C) is telling us that wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 (Cable etc.) may be used for the portion of wiring inside the house. Once on the outside it has to change over because only methods listed in 680.21(A) are allowed.
Notice that the same thing is basically repeated in 680.21(4)
Bill
l_zabel,
You mentioned the disconnect wasn't needed. I just wanted to correct you on that point.
680.41 refers to an Emergency Switch which is different than a disconnect switch. The Emergency switch is only there to turn off the recirculation system (say in the event that someone got their hair caught in an intake) it does not necessarily kill the power. The disconnect required in 680.12 is a "Maintenance" disconnect and does kill all the power to the unit so that it can be serviced safely.
680.42(C) is telling us that wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 (Cable etc.) may be used for the portion of wiring inside the house. Once on the outside it has to change over because only methods listed in 680.21(A) are allowed.
Notice that the same thing is basically repeated in 680.21(4)
Bill
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
Thanks, I finally understand it. I can use NM for the interior wiring portion of that, but then need to switch to MC on the outside because of the inability to run conduit. I think you misunderstood on the disconnecting means, I understand that one is needed, however in this instance the package comes with a disconnecting means on the unit that satisfies the disconnecting means for maintenance. Again thanks for the help. Although I am still a little hazy on connections to motor heaters, etc part of the 680.42(c) don't you still need to go outside to make those connections, it really doesn't state that.
[ September 24, 2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: l_zabel ]
Thanks, I finally understand it. I can use NM for the interior wiring portion of that, but then need to switch to MC on the outside because of the inability to run conduit. I think you misunderstood on the disconnecting means, I understand that one is needed, however in this instance the package comes with a disconnecting means on the unit that satisfies the disconnecting means for maintenance. Again thanks for the help. Although I am still a little hazy on connections to motor heaters, etc part of the 680.42(c) don't you still need to go outside to make those connections, it really doesn't state that.
[ September 24, 2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: l_zabel ]
bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
l_zabel,
I should modify my response above a bit to say that cable assemblies such as NM and UF are not permitted for this application. I would check with the Inspector about the disconnect.
Bill
l_zabel,
I should modify my response above a bit to say that cable assemblies such as NM and UF are not permitted for this application. I would check with the Inspector about the disconnect.
Bill
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Hot tub installation on a deck
We still need to know if the equipment package is already GFCI protected. A complete answer is premature without knowing all the facts. That's why I have avoided any code citations. Still too many unanswered questions about the particular application. The Devil is in the details. Who is the resident swimming pool code expert on this forum?
We still need to know if the equipment package is already GFCI protected. A complete answer is premature without knowing all the facts. That's why I have avoided any code citations. Still too many unanswered questions about the particular application. The Devil is in the details. Who is the resident swimming pool code expert on this forum?
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