Hot Tub Installation

Status
Not open for further replies.
Question Pertaining to Single Family Dwelling Hot Tub Installation. Feeders and Branch circuits.


A proper size breaker (60A) installed in the 40 circuit main breaker panel, the breaker is connected to a 6/3 WG NMB cable. The cable is runned to a two circuit main lug load center with a double pole 50A GFCI circuit breaker. The breaker serves as both the disconnect switch and provides the GFCI protection for the Hot Tub. The wiring method on the load side of the GFCI to the Hot Tub is liquid-tight with an insulated Equipment Ground Conductor.

Is this a code compliant installation?
Reference: 680.25, 680.25(a), 680.42(c)
 

kbsparky

Senior Member
Is the tub located indoors or out? Is the required GFCI protected convenience outlet within 10 feet (between 10 and 20 feet if the tub is outdoors) of the tub?

Is the enclosure for your breaker/disconnect rated for the location? Is this box located five feet or more away from the inside of the tub?

There are many other factors that have to be considered before one could conclude that you have a Code compliant installation.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Question Pertaining to Single Family Dwelling Hot Tub Installation. Feeders and Branch circuits.


A proper size breaker (60A) installed in the 40 circuit main breaker panel, the breaker is connected to a 6/3 WG NMB cable. The cable is runned to a two circuit main lug load center with a double pole 50A GFCI circuit breaker. The breaker serves as both the disconnect switch and provides the GFCI protection for the Hot Tub. The wiring method on the load side of the GFCI to the Hot Tub is liquid-tight with an insulated Equipment Ground Conductor.

Is this a code compliant installation?
Reference: 680.25, 680.25(a), 680.42(c)
What you stated sounds compliant. The only issue may be what the specs on the tub requires for an EGC. Many of the tubs require a egc the same size as the ungrounded conductors-- in your case #6. Bogus, maybe, but a good inspector with the installation manual available could catch it. You should be aware of that requirement.

I have been piping all my installations because of that. Fortunately I don't do a lot of tubs.
 
Question Clarification

Question Clarification

Question Pertaining to Single Family Dwelling Hot Tub Installation. Feeders and Branch circuits.


A proper size breaker (60A) installed in the 40 circuit main breaker panel, the breaker is connected to a 6/3 WG NMB cable. The cable is runned to a two circuit main lug load center with a double pole 50A GFCI circuit breaker. The breaker serves as both the disconnect switch and provides the GFCI protection for the Hot Tub. The wiring method on the load side of the GFCI to the Hot Tub is liquid-tight with an insulated Equipment Ground Conductor.

Is this a code compliant installation?
Reference: 680.25, 680.25(a), 680.42(c)
Question Clarification: The real question is can you run 6/3 NMB cable or does it have to be in a raceway with a insulated EGC or other approved wiring method?
For the purpose of this question is it agreed that the rest of the installation is correct?
680.42C Allowes NMB cable to be used
680.25 and 680.25C requires a feeder to have a insulated EGC to a panel board for pool equioment.
There inlies the situation!!
Feeder By definintion is: All Circuit conductors between the service equipment and the final overcurrent protection device.
Is the 2 circuit load center with GFCI circuit breaker installed within, really classified or considered as a panel board for pool equipment? Therefore requires a wiring method to be used with a insulated EGC, and therefore not allowing NMB cable to be used to supply power to this disconnect or is it acceptable to run
6/3 WG NMB cable?
 

Pierre C Belarge

Senior Member
Question Pertaining to Single Family Dwelling Hot Tub Installation. Feeders and Branch circuits.


A proper size breaker (60A) installed in the 40 circuit main breaker panel, the breaker is connected to a 6/3 WG NMB cable. The cable is runned to a two circuit main lug load center with a double pole 50A GFCI circuit breaker. The breaker serves as both the disconnect switch and provides the GFCI protection for the Hot Tub. The wiring method on the load side of the GFCI to the Hot Tub is liquid-tight with an insulated Equipment Ground Conductor.

Is this a code compliant installation?
Reference: 680.25, 680.25(a), 680.42(c)
The portion I highlighted would make the NM cable you installed qualified as a feeder. Since it is a feeder, 680.42(C) does not apply.
Move the 2-pole GFCI device back to the panel where the feeder starts, the NM cable will then be called a branch circuit, and you will be permitted to keep the NM cable up to the box you installed. Put a non-fused device in the box, as your disconnecting means.
 
Question Pertaining to Single Family Dwelling Hot Tub Installation. Feeders and Branch circuits.


A proper size breaker (60A) installed in the 40 circuit main breaker panel, the breaker is connected to a 6/3 WG NMB cable. The cable is runned to a two circuit main lug load center with a double pole 50A GFCI circuit breaker. The breaker serves as both the disconnect switch and provides the GFCI protection for the Hot Tub. The wiring method on the load side of the GFCI to the Hot Tub is liquid-tight with an insulated Equipment Ground Conductor.

Is this a code compliant installation?
Reference: 680.25, 680.25(a), 680.42(c)
Question Clarification:
The real question is can you run 6/3 NMB cable or does it have to be in a raceway with a insulated EGC or other approved wiring method?
For the purpose of this question it is agreed that the rest of the in stallatinis correct?
680.42C allows NMB cable to be used
680.25 and 680.25C requires a feeder to have a insulated EGC to a panel board for pool equipment.
There inlies the situation!!!
Feeder by definition is: All circuit conductors between the service equipment and the final overcurrent protection device.
Is the 2 circuit load center with GFCI circuit breaker installed within, really classified or considered as a panel board for pool equipment? THerefore requires a wiring method to be used with a insulated EGC, and therefore not allowing NMB cable to be used to supply power to this disconnect or is it acceptable to run 6/3 WG NMB cable?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
That's an interesting question that you posted. I believe the concept is whether the wire to the disco is a feeder or a branch circuit. If I use a fuseless disco at the tub with a gfci breaker in the main panel then it is a branch circuit. If the disco is a breaker then it becomes a feeder unless the disco is considered part of the tub assembly. My opinion is that if you feed a panelboard then you would need the insulated egc but since you are feeding a disconnect, whether a breaker is installed or not, then NM is allowed.

I can see how this can cause issues but if you read 680.42(C) it would make no sense if you are talking about the wire from the disco to the tub. It simply is not allowed outside thus it must be pertaining to the wire from the panel to the disco.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
If the disco is a breaker then it becomes a feeder unless the disco is considered part of the tub assembly.
Can't the second breaker be considered "supplemental" OCP, and allow the entire circuit to be a BC?

This same thing has come up about A/C comnpresor units, but I don't remember the resulting concensus.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Can't the second breaker be considered "supplemental" OCP, and allow the entire circuit to be a BC?

This same thing has come up about A/C comnpresor units, but I don't remember the resulting concensus.
I agree thus that is probably the reason this issue isn't red tagged.
 
Hot Tub Installation

Question Pertaining to Single Family Dwelling Hot Tub Installation. Feeders and Branch circuits.

A proper size breaker (60A) installed in the 40 circuit main breaker panel, the breaker is connected to a 6/3 WG NMB cable. The cable is runned to a two circuit main lug load center (CH60SPA) with a double pole 60A GFCI circuit breaker. The breaker serves as both the disconnect switch and provides the GFCI protection for the Hot Tub. The wiring method on the load side of the GFCI to the Hot Tub is liquid-tight with an insulated Equipment Ground Conductor.

The real question is can you run 6/3 NMB cable or does it have to be in a raceway with a insulated EGC or other approved wiring method?
For the purpose of this question it is agreed that the rest of the installations correct?
680.42C allows NMB cable to be used
680.25 and 680.25C requires a feeder to have a insulated EGC to a panel board for pool equipment.
There inlies the situation!!!
Feeder by definition is: All circuit conductors between the service equipment and the final overcurrent protection device.
Is the 2 circuit load center (CH60SPA) with GFCI circuit breaker installed within, really classified or considered as a panel board for pool equipment? Therefore requires a wiring method to be used with a insulated EGC, and therefore not allowing NMB cable to be used to supply power to this disconnect or is it acceptable to run 6/3 WG NMB cable?


Is this a code compliant installation?
Reference: 680.25, 680.25(a), 680.42(c)
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
6/3 NM is not rated for 60A to begin with so we have an issue right off the bat. The rest of the answer depends on the location of the hot tub
 
I agree with the NMB wiring method. Did one with 50A and 6/3 NM out through soffit block into PVC sleeve down to disconnect.
680.21(A)(4) seems most relevant since the installation is supposed to comply with parts I and II and that statement is mirrored in 680.42 again, it seems that its OK.
As for the #6 on a 60A breaker..:-????The book says you can go to the next higher OCPD I would personally install a #4, because the code is a minimum requirement. My opinion.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
I'm pretty sure that is a panel ,..at least they advertise it as such,.and that would make for a feeder and a feeder would make for pipe.
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Branch Circuit. The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).
If the disco is an OCPD then that is where the branch circuit begins and the between the panel and the disco is a feeder. If you put a non-fused disco in place then you need an insulated conductor from the OCPD in the panel as the branch circuit now starts in the panel and not the disco.
 

rbwsparky

Senior Member
We do all hot tub installs with gfi breaker at main or sub, run conduit and pull thhn to a pullout disco within 10 ft of tub and use liquidtite fnc to tub. All tubs i've installed require fullsize ground. All inspectors in my area like it installed this way. They would fail it with romex.
 

Greg1707

Senior Member
Background information

Background information

There are a number of confusing issues regarding hot tub installations.

Here are some issues:

Equipment grounding conductor: bare or coverd? Why should it make a difference whether covered or not depending on whether it is a feeder or branch circuit conductor?

Size of conductors: I just installed a 50 amp hot tub that the manufacturer required four #6 wires from panel to tub. Why did this tub require a #6 egc? Why on earth did it require a #6 neutral? I assume the neutral only carried the unbalanced load. There is nothing on the tub that could have required a wire that size!

Does anyone know the theory behind these requirements? Knowing the theory would help us understand the requirements!
 

david

Senior Member
You can argue the need for the insulated equipment ground, you can argue if there is a need to oversize and equipment ground. But both are to create what is commonly referred to as an ensured ground fault path. The same as any equipment grounding system does.

Any time you insulated a conductor you are preventing an unintentional contact with that conductor.

When you oversize an equipment ground you are lowering the effects that heat and the overall resistance of the conductor.

It’s that whole concept of doing something extra when the body’s resistance is brought to its lowest values. (soaked in un-pure water)
 

david

Senior Member
Before someone ask why swimming pools and not bathtubs. Swimming pools (gen. category) are generally a social event with more hazards associated with or surrounding the immediate area of a swimming pool.
I really don?t have a problem with the code council trying to address these specific concerns
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Did one with 50A and 6/3 NM out through soffit block into PVC sleeve down to disconnect.
That is non-compliant on two points:

1. The NM is not permitted outdoors, even inside a conduit.

2. Any cable with a bare EGC is not permitted outdoors.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
The whole think is absurd. If a non fused disco is installed a bare egc is okay inside the house but if a breaker is installed in the disco then an insulated egc must be used. How ridiculous is that?
 

fishin' electrician

Senior Member
I don't have or need an '08 code book but in the '05 definition for branch circuit it says: "the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit", so unless the definition has changed in the '08, I stand behind my view. :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top