Hot Tub Pump Cycling

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jap

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Electrician
Friend of mine got a hot tub at a garage sale.
Standard 20 amp 120v male plug with GFI within 12" of the end of the cord.
He filled it up and pugged it in.
It starts up and runs for about 10 seconds then the pump motor gets so hot it trips out the thermal overload.
After about 3 or 4 minutes it cools down and starts up again.
I broke loose the water line fitting above the pump to relieve the pressure but still the same problem.
My question is this tub is plugged into the only outlet out on his back deck far from anything else.
Voltage was solid 120 at the unit until the pump started, then it dropped down to 100 then 98 with the amperage going to 38 then to 40 amps.
It doesn't trip the breaker feeding the receptacle it just keeps cycling on the thermal overload.
The end of the cord was hot so thinking it might possibly be a loose connection in the cord, temporarily made a male cord out of thhn and a male cap.
No change in operation.
Without having to throw a bunch of parts at it that I don't have readily available, or causing more problems by trying to get everything out of the way to get the pump out, I suggested he have a hot tub guy come and look at it.

Other than plugging a dummy load into the outside outlet to see if that load operated properly, which it does , after I left, I got to wondering how one would actually determine if the pump was having issues because of a voltage drop problem ,or, if the bad motor was causing the voltage drop itself without having to tear everything apart and isolating the motor to different source.
It seemed odd that at 40 amps, even for that short amount of time, that it didn't take out the 20 amp 1p breaker feeding the outlet but it was getting late.

JAP>
 
Friend of mine got a hot tub at a garage sale.
Standard 20 amp 120v male plug with GFI within 12" of the end of the cord.
He filled it up and pugged it in.
It starts up and runs for about 10 seconds then the pump motor gets so hot it trips out the thermal overload.
After about 3 or 4 minutes it cools down and starts up again.
I broke loose the water line fitting above the pump to relieve the pressure but still the same problem.
My question is this tub is plugged into the only outlet out on his back deck far from anything else.
Voltage was solid 120 at the unit until the pump started, then it dropped down to 100 then 98 with the amperage going to 38 then to 40 amps.
It doesn't trip the breaker feeding the receptacle it just keeps cycling on the thermal overload.
The end of the cord was hot so thinking it might possibly be a loose connection in the cord, temporarily made a male cord out of thhn and a male cap.
No change in operation.
Without having to throw a bunch of parts at it that I don't have readily available, or causing more problems by trying to get everything out of the way to get the pump out, I suggested he have a hot tub guy come and look at it.

Other than plugging a dummy load into the outside outlet to see if that load operated properly, which it does , after I left, I got to wondering how one would actually determine if the pump was having issues because of a voltage drop problem ,or, if the bad motor was causing the voltage drop itself without having to tear everything apart and isolating the motor to different source.
It seemed odd that at 40 amps, even for that short amount of time, that it didn't take out the 20 amp 1p breaker feeding the outlet but it was getting late.

JAP>

First of all I'd be concerned if the pump is pulling 38-40 amps on a 20 amp circuit. I'd worry about the permanent wiring taking some damage, let alone the tub's cord set. Second, if it's getting that hot it sounds like maybe it's supposed to be operating on 240. Is there any evidence that the plug was field installed (ie, not molded on)?
 
My money is all on the centrifugal switch is not opening the start winding circuit after it gets up in speed.

20 amp breaker should hold at 40 amps for more then a few seconds - maybe 30-45 seconds.
 
My money is all on the centrifugal switch is not opening the start winding circuit after it gets up in speed.

20 amp breaker should hold at 40 amps for more then a few seconds - maybe 30-45 seconds.

Okay, I must have automatically put "minutes" in my head after the "10". D'oh! :slaphead:
 
First of all I'd be concerned if the pump is pulling 38-40 amps on a 20 amp circuit. I'd worry about the permanent wiring taking some damage, let alone the tub's cord set. Second, if it's getting that hot it sounds like maybe it's supposed to be operating on 240. Is there any evidence that the plug was field installed (ie, not molded on)?

No it's a molded 125v 20 amp factory cord.

JAP>
 
My money is all on the centrifugal switch is not opening the start winding circuit after it gets up in speed.

20 amp breaker should hold at 40 amps for more then a few seconds - maybe 30-45 seconds.

That's probably the case, just more than I wanted to get envolved in, If it was mine,,,, maybe.

JAP>
 
That's probably the case, just more than I wanted to get envolved in, If it was mine,,,, maybe.

JAP>
Hot tub repairman likely replaces entire motor regardless.

add: he may even replace entire motor/pump assembly.
 
This was more about a bad Motor causing a voltage Drop or a Voltage drop causing a motor to get hot.
Other than plugging in a dummy load to the outlet to see how it operates, what else could one do to determine one way or the other?

JAP>
 
This was more about a bad Motor causing a voltage Drop or a Voltage drop causing a motor to get hot.
Other than plugging in a dummy load to the outlet to see how it operates, what else could one do to determine one way or the other?

JAP>

Starting winding on a motor that size will pull like 100A for a split second and 40 to 80A if it starting switch doesn't open. The other thing that happens is the running winding is bad so the switch opens, the motor slows down, switch closes, starting winding speeds the motor up for a moment and the cycle continues till either the breaker or the thermal on the motor opens.
 
This was more about a bad Motor causing a voltage Drop or a Voltage drop causing a motor to get hot.
Other than plugging in a dummy load to the outlet to see how it operates, what else could one do to determine one way or the other?

JAP>

A dummy load on a 20 amp circuit could be a hair dryer or a portable space heater. If you see no significant drop at 15 or so amps, you can rule out voltage drop causing problems with the motor.

I am willing to bet the motor is the culprit. You (or someone) will probably have to pull the motor and check it out.

Usually, these used hot tub deals end up costing as much as a new one by the time the buyer gets everything fixed. It's common to have 400-500 bucks or more into a 100 dollar hot tub.
 
A dummy load on a 20 amp circuit could be a hair dryer or a portable space heater. If you see no significant drop at 15 or so amps, you can rule out voltage drop causing problems with the motor.

I am willing to bet the motor is the culprit. You (or someone) will probably have to pull the motor and check it out.

Usually, these used hot tub deals end up costing as much as a new one by the time the buyer gets everything fixed. It's common to have 400-500 bucks or more into a 100 dollar hot tub.

I'm with you on that one.

JAP>
 
This was more about a bad Motor causing a voltage Drop or a Voltage drop causing a motor to get hot.
Other than plugging in a dummy load to the outlet to see how it operates, what else could one do to determine one way or the other?

JAP>

I would check to see if someone has moved the jumpers and such to wire it for 240. (if it can be)
I know that's a stretch but I can see someone doing that and not knowing the 120 volt plug needed to be replaced with 240 volt wiring......
Just a thought.
 
Starting winding on a motor that size will pull like 100A for a split second and 40 to 80A if it starting switch doesn't open. The other thing that happens is the running winding is bad so the switch opens, the motor slows down, switch closes, starting winding speeds the motor up for a moment and the cycle continues till either the breaker or the thermal on the motor opens.
You need both start and run winding together to create rotating magnetic field or it will not start, since it does run but at high current the switch that cuts out the start winding is not opening. If it has a start capacitor it is a little surprising it hasn't smoked it yet - once it does it likely will not start.
 
You need both start and run winding together to create rotating magnetic field or it will not start, since it does run but at high current the switch that cuts out the start winding is not opening. If it has a start capacitor it is a little surprising it hasn't smoked it yet - once it does it likely will not start.

Start winding only with a start cap will give it enough kick, bad running winding won't let the motor come up to speed but the rotor will still spin....rrrooomm, click, rrrrooommm, click, roommm, click,...... thermal opens or the breaker trips.
 
Start winding only with a start cap will give it enough kick, bad running winding won't let the motor come up to speed but the rotor will still spin....rrrooomm, click, rrrrooommm, click, roommm, click,...... thermal opens or the breaker trips.
You must have some current in run winding or else you have no rotating field to give it a kick. So a run winding with a ground fault may get it spinning because there is some current in it, totally open circuit in run winding though and it isn't going to turn.
 
Friend of mine got a hot tub at a garage sale.
Standard 20 amp 120v male plug with GFI within 12" of the end of the cord.
He filled it up and pugged it in.
It starts up and runs for about 10 seconds then the pump motor gets so hot it trips out the thermal overload.
After about 3 or 4 minutes it cools down and starts up again.
I broke loose the water line fitting above the pump to relieve the pressure but still the same problem.
My question is this tub is plugged into the only outlet out on his back deck far from anything else.
Voltage was solid 120 at the unit until the pump started, then it dropped down to 100 then 98 with the amperage going to 38 then to 40 amps.
It doesn't trip the breaker feeding the receptacle it just keeps cycling on the thermal overload.
The end of the cord was hot so thinking it might possibly be a loose connection in the cord, temporarily made a male cord out of thhn and a male cap.
No change in operation.
Without having to throw a bunch of parts at it that I don't have readily available, or causing more problems by trying to get everything out of the way to get the pump out, I suggested he have a hot tub guy come and look at it.

Other than plugging a dummy load into the outside outlet to see if that load operated properly, which it does , after I left, I got to wondering how one would actually determine if the pump was having issues because of a voltage drop problem ,or, if the bad motor was causing the voltage drop itself without having to tear everything apart and isolating the motor to different source.
It seemed odd that at 40 amps, even for that short amount of time, that it didn't take out the 20 amp 1p breaker feeding the outlet but it was getting late.

JAP>

Can you post a picture of the manufacturer's nameplate?
 
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