Had a customer ask about a hot tub that didn't have a neutral and he stated that the hot tub company installed the wire and told him all he needed was 2 hots and a ground so that's all he ran. I told him to cap the neutral off in the spa box but he said the GFCI wouldn't trip with the text button and then he installed the neutral wire with the ground wire and it would trip when hitting the test button. I told him to check with the Hot tub company to make sure it didn't need a neutral but the GFCI breaker should trip with the test button with the neutral capped off, correct?
Hot tub
- Thread starter frofro19
- Start date
curt swartz
Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
- Location
- San Jose, CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Where is the GFCI in the circuit? A GFCI breaker needs a line neutral but not a load neutral. Without a line neutral its just a standard breaker (no GFCI protection)
My understanding is he was told it just needed a 3 wire setup and that's what he ran. He stated the hot tub company terminated the wires in the hot tub so I believe he installed the hot tub disconnect and ran his wire from the panel to the disconnect . The disconnect is splicing the wires from the panel and the hot tub. Test button wouldn't work until he terminated the disconnect neutral pigtail to the ground in the disconnect.
curt swartz
Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
- Location
- San Jose, CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Assuming the hot tub disconnect has the GFCI he needs a 4-wire feed to the disconnect. If the hot tub only requires 240 he only needs 2 hots and an EGC from the disconnect to the hot tub.
Move the GFCI breaker to the main panel and then put a switch only breaker or non-GFCI breaker in the disconnect box. The GFCI will protect the wires up to the disconnect and after. LOAD side neutral shouldn't be needed with a GFCI, but you need a line side connection. If this circuit to the disconnect is very long, you may get nuisance GFCI tripping.
I believe that's what he has. The hot tub company should have never told him to just run the 3 wire set-up. I asked him how long the run is and if he can run a new 4 wire to the disconnect, but haven't heard back yet.
He was telling me that he couldn't get a GFCI breaker in his sub-panel for some reason. Not sure what sub-panel he has as I haven't been to the location. Looks like his best option is to run a new 4 wire to the disconnect if possible.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
If the gfci is in the outdoor spa disconnect then you need a neutral for the gfci to operate correctly. I haven't seen gfci for 240v that don't require neutrals but I may be unaware that they exist
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
Semantics can be a b**tch sometimes... when discussing 240V circuits, "3 wire" usually means Hot-Hot-Neutral, you don't count the ground as a "wire". It is 3W with G or 3W w/o G.
I don't know of any 2 pole GFCI breakers that work without a line side neutral connection, I've looked. The issue is that the internal electronics for the GFCI circuitry is powered from 120V, hence the need for the neutral on the line side. Many if not most however are fine with not connecting the Neutral on the LOAD side. So if you put the GFCI breaker in the SOURCE panel, it should be fine.
Ah, just noticed that is what suemarkp already said. Just adding to that, most GFCI breakers will tell you between 300-350ft max. distance to avoid nuisance tripping from cable capacitance charging.
I agree and my understanding is that the hot tub company installed (2) hot tubs, one for the guy I've talked to and another for someone else. They told they one guy to run a 4 wire and this guy a 3 wire. I haven't seen either one and don't know what the distance is. I reached out to him this morning telling him that he at least needed to run a 4 wire to the disconnect but haven't received a response yet.
So this is what he is telling me. His sub-panel is a Homeline and they dont make a 60 amp GFCI breaker for that panel for some reason. The company told him he needed a 60 amp and not a 50 amp because of dual motors or something like that. His run is 70 feet of 6/2 so I suggested to him to relocate the spa box with the GFCI breaker in it beside of the sub-panel and run a short piece of 4 conductor wire frome the sub-panel to the spa box and keep the existing 3 conductor wire in place and put a non-GFCI disconnect near the hot tub.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
This is true. Sq. D DOES make a QO260GF though, which is odd, because the HOM and QO have the same guts... It must be that Sq. D wants the premium price for the QO version for as long as they can get it until the rest of the industry catches up on 60A GFCI breakers.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
FWIW, QO260GFI breakers do not have a load side neutral terminal. They still need a supply side neutral to run the electronic components though.
I'd be verifying actual loads in the spa and see if a Homeline 50 amp GFCI would still suffice. Pumps generally are all about the same in most units, heater wattage might be one the bigger variances. Many spa control panels are one size fits many models so you can't go off the control panel itself. Often they don't even have all possible features being utilized.
I'd be verifying actual loads in the spa and see if a Homeline 50 amp GFCI would still suffice. Pumps generally are all about the same in most units, heater wattage might be one the bigger variances. Many spa control panels are one size fits many models so you can't go off the control panel itself. Often they don't even have all possible features being utilized.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
The QO260GFI3W in the QOE260GFINM supposedly does.
The load white wire behind the red wire is going somewhere.
Square D QO 60 Amp 2-Space 4-Circuit Spa Panel Main Lug Load Center(QOE260GFINM) QOE260GFINM - The Home Depot
Provide complete power solutions to your home by using this Square D Homeline 2-Space 4-Circuit Spa Panel Main Lug Load Center. Cover can be padlocked.
www.homedepot.com
I suggested a 50 amp to him but he said the company told him he needed the 60 amp because of dual motors or something. I haven't seen the hot tub so I don't know the specs on it, just going by what's he's telling me.
Get a model number from him and look it up, maybe?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
If larger motors and possibly even a larger heater I could see 60 amp breaker being necessary. 50 amp breaker maybe even 40 amp breaker would hold running current on most units, but possibly may need a little higher setting to allow for motor starting? Heat won't ever be on (without malfunction) if heating circuit pump isn't proven to have pressure or flow so that helps with the starting surge and possible breaker tripping.
This is what he sent me so I guess there were a few options.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Makes sense, but at same time a 50 amp breaker should hold indefinitely on a 45 amp load. As I said before the heater will not be running when the heat circuit pump is starting so that helps allowing it hold when pump is starting.