Hot Water Heater Element ??

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augie47

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Tennessee
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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Electrician asking guidance. Customer complaining of shock when touching metal sink and stove.
Sink to stove voltage reads 3 to 5 volts. Same reading sink to grounding terminal on nearby receptacle.
Thinking is that the voltage is originating from a bad water heater element.
Trouble shooting scheduled to continue tomorrow.
(Commercial installation. Water heater supply source unknown, no disconnect)
Input ?
 
Electrician asking guidance. Customer complaining of shock when touching metal sink and stove.
Sink to stove voltage reads 3 to 5 volts. Same reading sink to grounding terminal on nearby receptacle.
Thinking is that the voltage is originating from a bad water heater element.
Trouble shooting scheduled to continue tomorrow.
(Commercial installation. Water heater supply source unknown, no disconnect)
Input ?



If the plumbing was bonded there should not be potential. Something is bringing remote earth to the sink.
 
...Thinking is that the voltage is originating from a bad water heater element....
I'm betting the other way around: The voltage is originating from the frame of the stove because the neutral is bonded at the cord connection so the customer is passing return current to the grounded water pipes.

Unless this is an antique stove and circuit, pull it out, remove the back cover and lift the bonding jumper.
 
If the plumbing was bonded there should not be potential. Something is bringing remote earth to the sink.
PVC Plumbing

I'm betting the other way around: The voltage is originating from the frame of the stove because the neutral is bonded at the cord connection so the customer is passing return current to the grounded water pipes.

Unless this is an antique stove and circuit, pull it out, remove the back cover and lift the bonding jumper.
Certainly not discounting that possibility, Older 3 wire circuit. The fact that he is getting the same reading from the sink to the closest convenience outlet made me concentrate on the sink.

All suggestions welcomed.
 
PVC Plumbing


Certainly not discounting that possibility, Older 3 wire circuit. The fact that he is getting the same reading from the sink to the closest convenience outlet made me concentrate on the sink.

All suggestions welcomed.

Everything is PVC? And disposal, dishwasher or insta hot?
 
Everything is PVC? And disposal, dishwasher or insta hot?
Only going by what I'm told... All piping is PVC except for sink faucets and 18" supply lines.
(no insta-hot)..storage type water heater
 
PVC is not normally (at least around here) allowed for any kind of hot water.
 
Only going by what I'm told... All piping is PVC except for sink faucets and 18" supply lines.
(no insta-hot)..storage type water heater

Disposal? Cabinet screws drilled into NM? I cant see voltage at the sink unless something metal is energizing it.
 
Anything that puts current thorough the neutral/EGC of the stove receptacle might also raise the potential of other EGCs in the area. Or if the POCO neutral is high enough in resistance the entire EGC network could be raised above remote earth.
Check how much current actually flows through a jumper connected from stove to sink. This maybgive you an idea of what the source might be.
Turn off breakers, checking to see what affects the voltage. If none (including main) affect it there may be a problem at other buildings on the same POCO secondary.
If it is the sink that is offset, and absolutely all piping is PVC, I would look at a disposal or instant hot that is directly bonded to the sink, or possibly some metal in the wall if there are not even metal pipe stubs.
The dishwasher is less likely to have any metallic connection to the sink.
 
Electrician asking guidance. Customer complaining of shock when touching metal sink and stove.
Sink to stove voltage reads 3 to 5 volts. Same reading sink to grounding terminal on nearby receptacle.
Thinking is that the voltage is originating from a bad water heater element.
Trouble shooting scheduled to continue tomorrow.
(Commercial installation. Water heater supply source unknown, no disconnect)
Input ?

Solution: Tell customer not to touch sink and stove simultaneously. :D

Kidding aside, there are several possibles here to me:

1) Does the sink have a garbage disposal? If not...
2) Does the sink have PEX mains AND PVC drains? If yes, then I would not suspect the sink as the source.
If yes to #1, does shutting off the breaker for the garbage disposal eliminate the 3-5V? If yes, then the garbage disposal is the likely fault
If no to #2, there is likely a bonding issue with the water supply. There could be something really odd, like a piece of damaged NM touching the drain line, tho I think that would cause more than one person to report a shock problem.

3) Does shutting off the breaker to the stove eliminate the voltage to the sink? If yes, there is probably a fault in the stove. If not, does testing from the stove to another grounding conductor give the same 3-5V reading? If yes, I'm guessing a ground loop.

You said this is a commercial space - what kind? If it's like a restaurant, then only one tenant or person is likely to complain about shock. If it's a multi-tenant building and no one else is complaining, well, they all have shared water supply and drains but only THIS person is reporting shock to a stove - I'm guessing the stove is the culprit.

eta: I dont suppose installing a bonding jumper from stove to sink is NEC compliant here?
 
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Check voltage between a remote ground rod or other electrode out in the yard and the grounded conductor of the electrical system, as well as the sink in question.

If there is voltage to the grounded conductor but you are not having apparent neutral problems it very well could be coming from POCO primary neutral either a bad connection or just a voltage drop issue, because their primary neutral is bonded to secondary neutral it will put this voltage on all connected paths.
 
PVC is not rated for hot water temperatures. It is good for cold water and drain/vent/waste piping. The hot water hard plastic pipe is CPVC, with the extra C for more Chlorine? Chlorinated Poly Vinyl Chloride plastic. Typically this is a very light yellow pipe, so it looks like PVC, but it is sized as copper pipe (noted as CPS), so it will not interchange with most PVC fittings. Enough plumbing lesson!

PEX is getting very common around here. Real easy to work with, sort of Romex of the water. A few special tools and you are a DIY plumber. Comes in three colors, white for anything, and red and blue for those that want to know what temperature water in the pipes might be. The PEX for hydronic heat is a slightly different alloy of plastic. Again, too much information.
 
PVC is not normally (at least around here) allowed for any kind of hot water.

maybe its all PEX ? so there is basically no bonding of the "plumbing" other than perhaps the copper main. so, the best you get is bonding of the water up to the metal sink(s). not all locales ask for the copper main feed to be bonded to poco gnd.
 
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