house lights dimming when heat pump turns on

Status
Not open for further replies.

Stevenfyeager

Senior Member
Location
United States, Indiana
Occupation
electrical contractor
What suggestions do you have to keep house lights from dimming when the heat pump or AC turns on ? My instructor years ago told me to install the heavy load breakers at the top next to the main breaker in the panel. I do that but sometimes they still dim. At a new house now, I have two panels side by side (200 amps each) I am going to try and put all the heavy load breakers in one and all the lighting loads in the other panel. Will this help ? Thank you. What if there is just one panel, what do you recommend ? Thank you.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
RJ has the questions that most likely the answers will reveal your problem.

I am presuming the worst issue is when the compressor is starting, and the problem is voltage drop. The amount of drop from one end of panel bus to the other is nothing compared to the drop on your service drop/lateral, then couple that with a transformer with multiple customers being served, potentially undersized to some extent, etc. there likely isn't a lot you are going to be able to do without drastic changes that may or may not even be something the POCO is very willing to entertain.

One bad thing about LED lighting is it seems to produce even more noticeable results to any fluctuations in the supply than incandescent lighting does.

About the only way putting lighting in one panel and other heavy loads in another might help is if both supply lines are separate all the way to the source, that probably not happening unless metering is done near the source, but even then a marginally sized transformer might still leave you with some those issues, though it probably does improve some as well.
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
It would be good to note here that the majority of new AC and HP, in order to meet energy efficiency requirements, have inverter compressor drives and inverter fan drives. Hence, there is no inrush current and no sudden voltage droop.

Older units the major impedance factor is the poco distribution transformer as already implied in previous posts.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It would be good to note here that the majority of new AC and HP, in order to meet energy efficiency requirements, have inverter compressor drives and inverter fan drives. Hence, there is no inrush current and no sudden voltage droop.

Older units the major impedance factor is the poco distribution transformer as already implied in previous posts.

I agree that the most energy efficient units have that technology, but so far am not really seeing it for a typical residential whole house systems either. In dwellings or even commercial settings have maybe seen it more on mini split units. Only larger inverter driven units I have wired myself were larger capacity systems with multiple compressors in the unit.

Maybe places where energy codes are enforced this is different, but many here still go with what cost less with a little consideration given at times to overall operating cost. That said the school I did with several larger inverter driven compressors has had a lot of service calls since installation, still under warranty, but when that warranty runs out, those calls will offset the owning/operation cost even if it is energy efficient, and people do pay some attention to that as well. Of course that warranty may have been included to an extent into the original purchase cost as well.
 

MAC702

Senior Member
Location
Clark County, NV
... the majority of new AC and HP, in order to meet energy efficiency requirements, have inverter compressor drives and inverter fan drives. Hence, there is no inrush current and no sudden voltage droop.

And are very much more expensive to repair. Yay, progress! A typical blower motor replacement has gone from $2-500 to $6-1200. PSC motors are stocked on my truck for 96% of the sizes out there. We'll have to hope we can find a replacement for your new "efficient" one before we can even get you a price. Most customers opt to have me install an adapter board and downgrade back to a PSC motor.
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
Agree on the cost and compleity, was simply making a comment relative to inrush. r On yu same line of reasoning, really dislike when a board has proprietary programed FPGA instead of straightforward simple logic chips.

As an example of cost - and LACK of good service manuals, my son's HP was damaged by a rare lightning strike (rare for PNW).
Service manual said replace inverter/control board, $325.
Having some knowledge of electronics, pulled the board - what failed was a $1.69 full wave diode bridge and 2 each IGBT at $2.28 each from Mouser or digi-key.

Why cannot the service manuals have a simple check (e.g set your multimeter on diode and put on the IGBT collector and emitter leads, beep = good, solid buzz = bad)
Not rocket science, think most HVAC installers and electricians could follow how to repair. Better for HO to spend $150 extra for local tech labor to replace those parts than to send $325 to China???

Am old enough to remember Sam's schematics and diagrams way way back (50's, 60's ) in the days when all appliances and TV sets were repaired vs scrapped if anything went wrong.
 

StarCat

Industrial Engineering Tech
Location
Moab, UT USA
Occupation
Imdustrial Engineering Technician - HVACR Electrical and Mechanical Systems
From and HVAC standpoint this is best practice as follows.
Be sure your breaker is sized to MAX breaker size from the unit nameplate.
Verify no problems with the compressor and read inrush with a recording meter on the common or run winding.
Install the correct HARD START gear package for your model compressor. This will drop the inrush significantly, thereby reducing the light dimming.
Explain to people that a certain amount of this effect is normal and expected when such a load is brought on the line. People are in many cases too focused on this matter when it is not in fact a problem.
The operation of the condensing unit needs to be top notch and with no latent problem that would lead to high starting or running amps. Burned compressor terminals are often times overlooked because people do not want to take the time to be inclusive in their analysis.
 

MAC702

Senior Member
Location
Clark County, NV
I do more replacements than new installations. If the existing fits the parameters, it doesn't get changed. So I'm curious to know why it's being claimed there is a benefit to the max.
 

sameguy

Senior Member
Location
New York
Occupation
Master Elec./JW retired
Agree on the cost and compleity, was simply making a comment relative to inrush. r On yu same line of reasoning, really dislike when a board has proprietary programed FPGA instead of straightforward simple logic chips.

As an example of cost - and LACK of good service manuals, my son's HP was damaged by a rare lightning strike (rare for PNW).
Service manual said replace inverter/control board, $325.
Having some knowledge of electronics, pulled the board - what failed was a $1.69 full wave diode bridge and 2 each IGBT at $2.28 each from Mouser or digi-key.

Why cannot the service manuals have a simple check (e.g set your multimeter on diode and put on the IGBT collector and emitter leads, beep = good, solid buzz = bad)
Not rocket science, think most HVAC installers and electricians could follow how to repair. Better for HO to spend $150 extra for local tech labor to replace those parts than to send $325 to China???

Am old enough to remember Sam's schematics and diagrams way way back (50's, 60's ) in the days when all appliances and TV sets were repaired vs scrapped if anything went wrong.


Sam's and we had a G.E. surplus gear store, real Radio Shack, Lafayette radio store; could buy almost anything.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I do more replacements than new installations. If the existing fits the parameters, it doesn't get changed. So I'm curious to know why it's being claimed there is a benefit to the max.

There isn't. Like mentioned if a 30 holds during starting installing a 40 doesn't create any advantages.

That said the unit may hold on a 30 in one install but same unit at another install may have less impedance between source and the load and therefore allows higher starting current and might not hold.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
From and HVAC standpoint this is best practice as follows.
Be sure your breaker is sized to MAX breaker size from the unit nameplate.
Verify no problems with the compressor and read inrush with a recording meter on the common or run winding.
Install the correct HARD START gear package for your model compressor. This will drop the inrush significantly, thereby reducing the light dimming.
Explain to people that a certain amount of this effect is normal and expected when such a load is brought on the line. People are in many cases too focused on this matter when it is not in fact a problem.
The operation of the condensing unit needs to be top notch and with no latent problem that would lead to high starting or running amps. Burned compressor terminals are often times overlooked because people do not want to take the time to be inclusive in their analysis.

I don't know that I agree with the hard start lessening the voltage dip when starting. All it is is a start capacitor and controls to take it out of circuit at the correct time of starting cycle. It will cause a bigger phase shift between main and aux winding during starting to develop more starting torque, which will increase the draw but for a shorter duration.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
191127-2108 EST

Stevenfyeager:

I am not clear on whether you are talking about your own existing home, a new one you are building for yourself, or some other new or older home.

To minimize flicker you want a large pole transformer, large and short distribution wires, two panels with separate main breakers are limitedly useful, and adding impedance in series with the motor load will reduce peak starting current, but lengthen starting current duration.

The number of other customers on your transformer, and the loading on the transformer at the time of your large load turning on, has nothing to do with the magnitude of your flicker. In reality more customers on one transformer might mean a larger transformer, and therefore, less flicker from your load change.

Your flicker magnitude is dependent upon all the source impedance that is common to both the load change, and to your flickering light. Do whatever you can to minimize this common impedance. You can do nothing about the transformer except get it changed if you can. The distribution wires from the transformer to your meter may also be out of your control. After the meter do whatever you can to separate the wiring and other components that are common to the lights and large load.

Small impedance changes, such as the position of a breaker on a bus bar, will have little effect on flicker. Having two separate main panels might make a small difference. This would depend on how much you can separate the common impedance. Two panels gets rid of the main breaker voltage drop, and some possible input wire drop.

If the large load is 120 V, then put the lighting load on a different 120 phase.

If you are concerned with an existing installation and there is a circuit problem, then you need to find the problem.

In my basement shop on my bench I have two 120 V phases 180 degrees apart, and a common neutral. Also a separate EGC.

An experiment with a CREE 9.5 W LED bulb and a 15 W Sylvania incandescent in parallel by my perception showed no difference in flicker. Both bulbs were side by side and powered at about 123 or 124 V with whatever continuous load is on the house and bench.

A 1/3 HP 120 V single phase induction motor was the changing load. Peak current is about 60 A (42 A RMS). This starting current lasts for about 5 cycles (almost 1/10 second), and the peaks are close to the the same value. At 5.5 cycles the current has started to diminish. After the centrifugal switch opens it takes a short time to reach steady state running current. This is a mechanically unloaded motor, and no additional inertia load, not even a pulley.

At the bench the loaded phase, hot to neutral, drops from 176 (124.4 V RMS) to 163 V, or an RMS change of 13*0.707 = 9 V measured with a scope.

Using a Fluke 27 in min-max mode the following measurements were obtained:
Call phase A the one with the motor load, and B the 180 degree opposite phase that shares the same neutral,

The Fluke has a longer averaging time than 1/10 second, and thus does not display as much voltage change as can be seen on the scope.

Using the Fluke phase A shows a change of of -2.3 V on motor start up. Phase B shows a +0.9 V change. Thus, for this startup duration the Fluke showed only 26% of the actual change. These measurements include both the hot and neutral voltage drops. The hot drop is greater than the neutral because there are three breakers and one fuse in the hot line path. I will let you analysis why one change is a reduction and the other an increase.

With a 240 V load change and viewing a 120 V light you will only see the change in voltage of the single common hot circuit path. There is no neutral change.

Even though a Fluke may not give an accurate min-max it can still be a good useful relative measuring tool.

.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
191129-1005 EST

One way to reduce flicker is to supply the lights from a Sola ferroresonant transformer. You may need to consider a minimum load on the transformer. The following test was using a 95 to 130 V input 120 VA transformer.

The load was the same two bulbs as in my previous post.

Before the motor load on the input side of the transformer the output read
--- scope 172 V peak (121.6 RMS calculated)
--- Fluke 121.3 RMS ( the Fluke 27 is an average reading meter calibrated RMS on a sine wave)

After motor load at input to transformer we can expect the same change as in my prior post. The output voltage had a slight oscillation just after loading of 2 to 3 cycles.
--- scope 168 V (118.7 RMS calculated) a drop of 2.9 RMS in one cycle, and at third cycle 176 V (124.4 RMS) a rise of 2.8 RMS
--- Fluke 121.2 RMS a drop of 0.1 V, and 121.4 RMS a rise of 0.1 V

I would suggest that I saw no flicker. A much more controlled and randomized experiment would be required to determine if flicker was detectable. But this mode of operation, with the Sola, would probably solve the flicker problem for the average user. I don't want to do an experiment from 130 to 95 V, but it would be interesting.

.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top