house panel

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hhsting

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In commercial building with multiple occupancy and tenants, house panel which supplies common area power and lights need separate service? Where in code it says house panel cannot be fed from tenant panel feeder breaker or tap from load side of service main breaker trough?
 
hhsting said:
In commercial building with multiple occupancy and tenants, house panel which supplies common area power and lights need separate service? Where in code it says house panel cannot be fed from tenant panel feeder breaker or tap from load side of service main breaker trough?
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If the house panel is fed from a "Tennant Panel Feeder Breaker" wouldn't that tenant be flipping the bill for the power used by the house panel?

Generally a house panel is on it's own meter for the simple fact that the billing for it needs to be kept separate from the others.

JAP>
 
Attached Figure 1 and Figure 2. Figure 1 is ehat is installed in field. The service disconnect is not grouped in Figure 1 and its in Tenant A space.

Would Figure 2 be something in which they are metered separately? Other than Figure 2 I am not sure how to correct Figure 1 house panel inTenant A space and service disconnect not grouped.
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jap said:
If the house panel is fed from a "Tennant Panel Feeder Breaker" wouldn't that tenant be flipping the bill for the power used by the house panel?

Generally a house panel is on it's own meter for the simple fact that the billing for it needs to be kept separate from the others.

JAP>
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NEC doesn't cover who is responsible for paying the bills. NEC doesn't care if there is any meters or not.

Isn't the issue generally more so about common area overcurrent devices not being accessible to users if they are in a tenant space regardless of meters and utility bill issues
 
There is no meter shown in figure 1 of the existing install.

Where is the existing meter or meters located?

Also, why is there now a Main Breaker shown ahead of the 2 meters in Figure 2 ?


JAP>
 
kwired said:
NEC doesn't cover who is responsible for paying the bills. NEC doesn't care if there is any meters or not.

Isn't the issue generally more so about common area overcurrent devices not being accessible to users if they are in a tenant space regardless of meters and utility bill issues
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No, the NEC doesn't care about who pays the bills or if there's any meters or not,,,, but the tenants had better.

You'd be a great next door neighbor to have in an apartment complex if I could run my AC Unit off of your service in the summertime. :p

Which is something I've actually seen happen when the wrong condensing unit was fed from the wrong disconnect on and apartment complex.

JAP>
 
jap said:
No, the NEC doesn't care about who pays the bills or if there's any meters or not,,,, but the tenants had better.

You'd be a great next door neighbor to have in an apartment complex if I could run my AC Unit off of your service in the summertime. :p

Which is something I've actually seen happen when the wrong condensing unit was fed from the wrong disconnect on and apartment complex.

JAP>
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I never said I'd want to pay your air conditioner bill.

There are multi tenant places where the owner pays the electric bill. NEC still wants them to have access to their overcurrent devices or possibly have a management process that will allow reasonable access if not directly accessible to the tenant. "house loads" are sort of like an additional tenant space, the owner/manager maybe is the person needing access, but shouldn't need to get into another tenant space to gain such access.
 
kwired said:
I never said I'd want to pay your air conditioner bill.

There are multi tenant places where the owner pays the electric bill. NEC still wants them to have access to their overcurrent devices or possibly have a management process that will allow reasonable access if not directly accessible to the tenant. "house loads" are sort of like an additional tenant space, the owner/manager maybe is the person needing access, but shouldn't need to get into another tenant space to gain such access.
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I guess as long as your feeding the house panel from the Tennant Breaker that's feeding the Owners apartment you'd be good to go then.


JAP>
 
jap said:
I guess as long as your feeding the house panel from the Tennant Breaker that's feeding the Owners apartment you'd be good to go then.


JAP>
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That possibly gets tricky, unless there is obvious reason to believe the owner/manager apartment is always going to be owner/manager apartment.

But if all tenants have access there is no reason all the overcurrent devices can't all be in same panel either, say in a common area. Security and other reasons may not like that (like each tenant being responsible for their own energy charges), but NEC should be fine with it.
 
Not sure how it is everywhere else, but, around here most all multi tenant complexes have group metering setups, where each tenant has his own meter and tenant breaker.

There is a separate meter and breaker in the stack specifically for the house panels.


We very seldom see a common panel with all of the tenant mains in them with sub-metering, or, a cover rental fee that's divided by all the tenants.


JAP>
 
jap said:
Not sure how it is everywhere else, but, around here most all multi tenant complexes have group metering setups, where each tenant has his own meter and tenant breaker.

There is a separate meter and breaker in the stack specifically for the house panels.


We very seldom see a common panel with all of the tenant mains in them with sub-metering, or, a cover rental fee that's divided by all the tenants.


JAP>
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That is typical here as well, but not always the case.

Existing building that has been re-purposed, you never know what you might find.

HUD, low income, other public housing projects - often the distribution is still there, even with meter sockets jumpered out. But there is a single POCO meter and owner pays the utility bills.
 
kwired said:
That is typical here as well, but not always the case.

Existing building that has been re-purposed, you never know what you might find.

HUD, low income, other public housing projects - often the distribution is still there, even with meter sockets jumpered out. But there is a single POCO meter and owner pays the utility bills.
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That doesn't seem to be what's pictured in post #3.

JAP>
 
However, depending on how the existing is metered, could change my perspective. :)


JAP>
 
jap said:
There is no meter shown in figure 1 of the existing install.

Where is the existing meter or meters located?

Also, why is there now a Main Breaker shown ahead of the 2 meters in Figure 2 ?


JAP>
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Post #3 Ignore Figure 1. Figure 1 existong condition.


Figure 2 edited and attached in this post is new setup. It is inside the building Tenant A space.

Would Figure #2 attached in this post comply to NEC 2014?




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Around here, if you put a Main ahead of the 2 disconnects for the tenant space and the house panel, the Main itself would require a meter ahead of it and the 2 meters beyond the main would be sub-metering.


JAP>
 
jap said:
Around here, if you put a Main ahead of the 2 disconnects for the tenant space and the house panel, the Main itself would require a meter ahead of it and the 2 meters beyond the main would be sub-metering.


JAP>
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Is sub metering of house Panel against the NEC 2014?

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hhsting said:
This is commericial multioccupancy building with multiple tenants.

Would post #14 attachment does not comply per NEC 2014 Article 210.25(B)?

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The attachment shows the service conductors inside the structure, that to me, is not at or near the closest point of entry to the structure.

JAP>
 
I simply don't understand why the service conductors don't go into a gutter at or near the closest point of entry to the structure, and, the (2) service disconnects tapped at that point.

That wouldn't be my first choice of distribution, but, just going off what is drawn.


I don't see the need for a Main OCPD then the feeders being Sub-Metered.


If you only have (2) Service disconnects to feed, why aren't the service entrance conductors simply brought into a gutter at or near the closest point of entry, and, the (2) Service disconnects metered separately at that point without the Main OCPD ?

JAP>
 
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