How do we get arc faults taken out of the code!

[Strombea]

I'm trying to figure out how we can get arc faults completely removed from the code, and if anybody on here has some sort of power with the NEC to suggest this. I live in a house that has no arc fault or GFI's in for 20 years, and I've had zero safety issues. We wire about 50 houses a year and the arc faults are just driving up the cost of electrical and it's all for nothing and then homeowners are having us remove them after inspection. There is zero safety benefits from these breakers. It is 100% just a way for them to make more money. So now what we are doing is we are only putting in arc faults for the day of the inspection and then removing them. I understand if we need to do it on the bedrooms still but now we are putting anywhere between 20 and 30 of these in each house. They are even asking it on the refrigerator which is pushed against the wall and now when people go out of town and the breaker trips from a lightning strike, they lose everything.

Reply, if you guys would sign a petition.

 

[LarryFine]

I would!

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I'm trying to figure out how we can get arc faults completely removed from the code, and if anybody on here has some sort of power with the NEC to suggest this. I live in a house that has no arc fault or GFI's in for 20 years, and I've had zero safety issues. We wire about 50 houses a year and the arc faults are just driving up the cost of electrical and it's all for nothing and then homeowners are having us remove them after inspection. There is zero safety benefits from these breakers. It is 100% just a way for them to make more money. So now what we are doing is we are only putting in arc faults for the day of the inspection and then removing them. I understand if we need to do it on the bedrooms still but now we are putting anywhere between 20 and 30 of these in each house. They are even asking it on the refrigerator which is pushed against the wall and now when people go out of town and the breaker trips from a lightning strike, they lose everything.

Reply, if you guys would sign a petition.

There is no method of change for the NEC other than the code making process. No amount of signatures on a petition will ever make a change in the code.
The NFPA is accepting Public Inputs until September 7th to make changes for the 2026 NEC. You would need a very substantial technical substantiation that shows the use of AFCIs is causing some danger to get them out of the code. Very unlikely any one could provide such a substantiation.

he only possible way to get them removed would be a class action suit showing that they are ineffective and do not provide any increase in safety...again, very unlikely to happen.

 

[tom baker]

Its almost 25 years since AFCIs were introduced. A class action lawsuit or public input, or work with your state agency to have removed from local admendments to the NEC

 

[electrofelon]

The NFPA is very dysfunctional and incompetent organization, I would not count on any possibility of change or put any effort to it from that angle. I would work with your state to have those parts of the code not adopted. Unfortunately, the NFPA/NEC has evolved to where it has incredible power with just about zero checks and balances, and state lawmakers generally adopt it without question.

 

[macmikeman]

From my experience , at least one brand has figured out how to stabilize it's plug in arc fault breakers to the point that I do not any longer get any feedback about nuisance tripping of the breakers. Anyone can pm me if they wan't to find out , but I don't wish to make any public statement on which brand I am talking about. As for the cost, yea, they came out in 1990. I worked out an appropriate dollar amount to add to any and all instructions to provide for arc fault circuit breakers (although I admit I am not so regular about putting in an arc fault receptacle outlet for every time I change out an old receptacle outlet. I do however wipe the area with a cloth to remove all fingerprints .....(kidding)).

 

[letgomywago]

From my experience , at least one brand has figured out how to stabilize it's plug in arc fault breakers to the point that I do not any longer get any feedback about nuisance tripping of the breakers. Anyone can pm me if they wan't to find out , but I don't wish to make any public statement on which brand I am talking about. As for the cost, yea, they came out in 1990. I worked out an appropriate dollar amount to add to any and all instructions to provide for arc fault circuit breakers (although I admit I am not so regular about putting in an arc fault receptacle outlet for every time I change out an old receptacle outlet. I do however wipe the area with a cloth to remove all fingerprints .....(kidding)).

Is that because that's the brand that did this to us?

 

[Strombea]

Well, I appreciate your guys input and I think after talking to my head building official writing a letter to the city council to just try to get them back to bedrooms and dwelling spaces might have a fighting chance on a local level.

It just sucks that like with most things no one listens to the public. I'm sure Eaton and Schneider have a very big hand in the way the code is written.

 

[Strombea]

There is no method of change for the NEC other than the code making process. No amount of signatures on a petition will ever make a change in the code.
The NFPA is accepting Public Inputs until September 7th to make changes for the 2026 NEC. You would need a very substantial technical substantiation that shows the use of AFCIs is causing some danger to get them out of the code. Very unlikely any one could provide such a substantiation.

he only possible way to get them removed would be a class action suit showing that they are ineffective and do not provide any increase in safety...again, very unlikely to happen.

Why would we need a substantiation showing that they cause danger? Why can't we just show that it is a waste of money, time and effort. Of course they don't cause danger. It's just a complete waste of resources. It would be like saying, every gang box needs to have one wire nut laying in the bottom for future use. This obviously would be a waste of wire nuts, but someone shouldn't have to explain how a wire nut laying in the bottom of the box is dangerous. It can just be described as waste.

 

[electrofelon]

Why would we need a substantiation showing that they cause danger? Why can't we just show that it is a waste of money, time and effort. Of course they don't cause danger. It's just a complete waste of resources. It would be like saying, every gang box needs to have one wire nut laying in the bottom for future use. This obviously would be a waste of wire nuts, but someone shouldn't have to explain how a wire nut laying in the bottom of the box is dangerous. It can just be described as waste.

Unfortunately that is how the CMP's operate: they frequently put thing IN the code without substantiation, but then you try to get something removed, and they say you need to provide substantiation. It's flawed logic and there is no way to win.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Why would we need a substantiation showing that they cause danger? Why can't we just show that it is a waste of money, time and effort. Of course they don't cause danger. It's just a complete waste of resources. It would be like saying, every gang box needs to have one wire nut laying in the bottom for future use. This obviously would be a waste of wire nuts, but someone shouldn't have to explain how a wire nut laying in the bottom of the box is dangerous. It can just be described as waste.

That is not something that the code panels are permitted to look at...they can only look at things related to hazards from the electrical system.

 

[infinity]

Many of us hate them but they're here to stay so my advice is get used to it. I wouldn't be telling people that I removed them after the inspection either but that's just me.

 

[goldstar]

Here's my opinion, (and I could be way off base) but it sure seems this way. The "idea" of an arc fault was developed LONG before they were even invented. The NEC went out to mfr's and said "Develop an arc fault breaker for the trade." Then the mfr's said "OK, we'll do it but, you will have to write it into the Code and compel EC's to buy & install them." They also said "We are not going to invest thousands of $$$ into R & D unless we have some guarantees." SO, the birth of arc faults began. One by one each mfr. developed their own version of an arc fault breaker and low and behold, here we are installing them.

NOW, we're having nuisance tripping so we go back to the NEC and complain BUT, it's written into the Code and there's no changing it !!! SO, we go to the mfr's and complain and they come back and say "Hey, we were just asked by the NEC to develop these breakers, the NEC never said anything about them being nuisance free or reliable." "If you want them to be nuisance free and reliable that will cost more $$$."

How far off base am I ?

 

[James L]

Local amendments are effective, and possible in smaller communities. We have one here which recently adopted the 2020, but they've amended out arc fault requirements from the beginning

 

[kec]

Local amendments are effective, and possible in smaller communities. We have one here which recently adopted the 2020, but they've amended out arc fault requirements from the beginning

Would like to know there reasoning why to amend so maybe other states might listen.

 

[curt swartz]

While I'm definitely not a fan of AFCI's in the past 10+ years we seldom get calls for tripping breakers. If you are having that much trouble I think you need to investigate wiring issues or quality of materials being used.

We install 20-100 AFCI or DF breakers in every home we wire. Most kitchen have 10-20 of them. Only 2 times we had issues with refrigerators they were both Sub Zero. Sub Zero confirmed there was a manufacturing/assembly issue and both times had repairs made withing 24 hour of call.

I have (2) 42-circuit panels in my own home filled with QO AFCI and DF breakers that the only one that occasionally trips 1-2 times a year feeds a bedroom with an older treadmill.

I know of some large EC's in my area that are installing hundreds of thousands of AFCI's every year and they don't have many issues.

I would be in favor of elimination AFCI's and require GFCI protection for all 15 and 20 amp dwelling circuits. I think they would save more lives than AFCI breakers. The new generation of AFCI's from GE, Eaton and Siemens where the 30-50ma GF protection has been removed are 100% useless in my opinion. At least Square D has kept this function in their breakers.

 

[tortuga]

While I'm definitely not a fan of AFCI's in the past 10+ years we seldom get calls for tripping breakers. If you are having that much trouble I think you need to investigate wiring issues or quality of materials being used.

We install 20-100 AFCI or DF breakers in every home we wire. Most kitchen have 10-20 of them. Only 2 times we had issues with refrigerators they were both Sub Zero. Sub Zero confirmed there was a manufacturing/assembly issue and both times had repairs made withing 24 hour of call.

I concur with curt, but I'll add that Oregon has amended the code and does not require them in as many places. Also I get hired to find and fix AFCI problems, and regularly. I'd say 99.99% of the problems I find is work done by 'installers' or DIY not 'electricians'.
I regularly use AFCI's several places where they are not even required (without issues).

And at the same time I support regular electricians getting involved in the code making process. If we don't stay involved its just corporate and trade lobbyists dictating code.
As others have pointed out there is a process, a petition wont work.
What you need is 'academic' research and data, and then peer review of the research, then as others have said present that research at the local or state level and get your code changed.
I have for years proposed that the system of protection used in the EU (and now the UK and EU) provides equivalent protection, these devices are called residual current devices (RCD's), basically a 20-100ma GFCI, we used to call them class B GFCI's.
They are already made by all manufacturers (30ma GFI breakers) and would be a drop in replacement. While there would be no cost savings, I think they would not nuisance trip, ever. As they just don't have this problem over the pond.
To accomplish this someone like a EE student would need to take that question on as their masters thesis, do a study and publish.
And they and their university would need some funding, lots of funding, so perhaps a 'gofundme' get 10000 sparkies to donate the cost of one AFCI?
So yeah get involved and it never hurts to make your voice herd.

 

[ActionDave]

....I have for years proposed that the system of protection used in the EU (and now the UK and EU) provides equivalent protection, these devices are called residual current devices (RCD's), basically a 20-100ma GFCI, we used to call them class B GFCI's.
They are already made by all manufacturers (30ma GFI breakers) and would be a drop in replacement. While there would be no cost savings, I think they would not nuisance trip, ever. As they just don't have this problem over the pond.

I've been saying this for years also. I don't know why the idea can't get any traction.

 

[Rex Hungerford]

I don't have trip issues with AFCI. But they are expensive. I have on the other hand been to many house where arching is occurring due to stab in style switches and duplex. You would need to get rid of these style devices to get rid of AFCI breakers. Now your looking at adding a lot our hours in make up time.

 

[Strombea]

I agree that they Are not tripping all that often I guess I just feel bad for the customers with electrical construction getting more expensive every year.

And I don't allow my guys to stab anything so the arcing and tripping isn't really my issue. my biggest thing is just cost.

I can agree that the petition won't work I am going to write a letter to the City Council to see if we can just go back to dwelling spaces.

I've also always thought to do away with sharing neutrals, so many dumbasses do it without fully understanding it and arc faults get rid of sharing neutrals.