How many can lights in a area?

[richwaskowitz]

I know this can be hard to answer or easy to answer depending on how technical you want to get. I am just looking for some advice based on past experience. I have a customer who wants to remove the 4 lamp fluorescent surface-mount fixture in their kitchen and replace it with recessed cans. The kitchen has a typical drywalled ceiling and the room is approximately 12 x 12 with a center island. Assuming 75 watt floods, would four fixtures provide a "good" level of light if they are the only light in the room? What is a good level of light (lumens /sq.ft.) to use in the calculators the lighting manufacturers provide?

 

[normbac]

I would put six kitchens always need more light than a typical room safe is better than sorry 3.5 ft from upper cabinet 5 ft between

 

[360Youth]

I have always told customers that recessed cans are like Lays potato chips, "You can't have just one." Most can layouts, from my experience, are dependent on how much light the customer wants. They are more direct light than general light so you can not count on them providing much more than its own little space.

 

[bradleyelectric]

I know this can be hard to answer or easy to answer depending on how technical you want to get. I am just looking for some advice based on past experience. I have a customer who wants to remove the 4 lamp fluorescent surface-mount fixture in their kitchen and replace it with recessed cans. The kitchen has a typical drywalled ceiling and the room is approximately 12 x 12 with a center island. Assuming 75 watt floods, would four fixtures provide a "good" level of light if they are the only light in the room? What is a good level of light (lumens /sq.ft.) to use in the calculators the lighting manufacturers provide?

What cans are you going to use that accept 75W floods? For 6" I use Progress with br3065W. Kitchens I usually use 4". Are you looking to just place them as a square or are you going to light the counter top? 4 would be a decent number for 6" cans, but I'd opt for 4" and more cans. That would come with a cost though.

 

[LarryFine]

Rich, the first step is to determine whether you want a pattern that ignores the cabinetry and counter layout, or want one that includes it. Are you looking for floor-area or counter lighting?

The idea behind kitchen lighting is usually task lighting. Usually, about a foot away from the upper cabinets or soffits lights up the counter areas without the user causing shadows.

I'll often see if I can center cans on upper cabinet doors, pairs of doors, or pairs of cabinets, so they look like they weren't placed at random. Then fill dark areas in a way that looks connected.

Ceiling framing and upstairs plumbing and HVAC must be taken into account, too. A good starting point may well be with a ruler/measurer and a stud finder, if you can't locate framing by the nail/screw dimples.

You also have to see which way the original fixtures feed comes from, especially if you want to patch the present location. Remember, you can't bury a splice, so you have to end the feed in a box.

 

[nunu161]

i would say 4 to 6 depending on the layout of the kitchen, and maybe a hanging light over the sink. And if you use 4 cans i'd go with the sylvania PAR 38 flood bulbs for the extra light rather then your traditional incandescent floods

 

[LarryFine]

Halogens always. Much whiter light than standard, even when dimmed a bit.

I often recommend a pair of smaller matching cans over the sink for less shadow.

 

[normbac]

I would put six kitchens always need more light than a typical room safe is better than sorry 3.5 ft from upper cabinet 5 ft between

3.5 from the wall rather it gives 2.5 from the cabinet I have put them closer to cabinet but after last homeowner not liking it I have since moved out a little. ceiling joists will dictate also

 

[LarryFine]

Democracy
5 wolves and a lamb voting what to have for dinner

What, or whom?

 

[LarryFine]

3.5 from the wall rather it gives 2.5 from the cabinet I have put them closer to cabinet but after last homeowner not liking it I have since moved out a little.

My concern with lights more than about 1.5' from the uppers is creating your own shadow when standing at the counter.

ceiling joists will dictate also

True. I try to place the spacing of the ones parallel to the framing (the distance from the cabinet is perpendicular) first, and then the other ones, with more leeway, to match.

 

[normbac]

I would put six kitchens always need more light than a typical room safe is better than sorry 3.5 ft from upper cabinet 5 ft between

My concern with lights more than about 1.5' from the uppers is creating your own shadow when standing at the counter.

True. I try to place the spacing of the ones parallel to the framing (the distance from the cabinet is perpendicular) first, and then the other ones, with more leeway, to match.

Never had a shadow problem since the kitchen is flooded with light when in doubt give the HO the choice after noting all concerns then they cant moan to much :roll:

 

[fondini]

cans

cans

I always sell undercabinet lights with cans, makes for happier cooks!

 

[active1]

Like said there are 2 types of layouts. Basic 4-6 cans more in the center or follow the cabinet layout. Lining up with cabinets looks great when it works out but it does take more layout time and small differances show more. Especialy if the cabinets are not there yet it takes more time.


When I'm following the cabinets I like the cans about 24 off the wall so it shines well on the counter top even when your standing there. Some areas you don't need direct light such as in front of the frig. My prefrence over the island is a few samll pendants. Undercabs look great but can and should be costly.

With the can spacing you have to concider the framing. If they hit on different joist spaces it can be a lot easier to space the cans in multibles of the joist spacing. Such as 16" oc joists you should be able to put the cans at 32" or 48" apart all the way across without hitting wood.

I like a lot of light myself in kitchens. I believe as people age or get tired they desire higher light levels.

If your cutting in no no or little damage remember the more can holes you cut in the easier it is to fish. It is also more profitable. If I got $125 for each can, cut in and had to drill and fish 4 cans 7' foot apart it would total $500. If I put in 8 cans I would get $1000 and would only have to drill and fish 3 1/2'. 4" cans are not ideal for drilling and fishing. I don't know if anyone makes a remodel IC 4".

 

[quogueelectric]

I always center over front edge of countertop letting as much light under cabinet while creating minimal shadows. I always try to upsell undercabinet lights. I would typically end up with the most lighting in a kitchen over other contractors. Guilty as charged. Cant have enough light in a kitchen.

 

[LarryFine]

Active, we shared a lot of comments and thoughts. :smile: I've done a lot of fishing and cross-drilling in ceilings, too. It's all connect-the-dots.

As for pricing, why not charge more for, let's say, fewer than six cans, plus extra work for patching, separate switching, hidden obstacles, etc?

 

[active1]

I would charge for each new switch leg and or fishing to the switch $60-75. Add a few dimmers and maybe cut-in a switch for some more money.

When I sold out I quit doing that kind of work. I wish a had some of those jobs now.

In my own homes in the past I probibly put in about 12 cans in a small kitchen plus a table light. With a new home I'm stuck with the basic 4 cans in the center and I hate it. Can't fix it now because I have other projects, for the next year or more when I get it done.

 

[vinster888]

i'd switch the 2 island cans separately also. they make a great mood light

 

[220/221]

Remember, you don't need to light the kitchen floor, you need to light the workspace.

Put the cans where you need the light, about 20" out and directly over the countertop work areas (no more than 4' apart on long areas).

Put a couple over the island

 

[richwaskowitz]

All excellent comments. Thanks to all. I am well aware of the mechanics of arranging and dealing with joists, ducts, cross-bracing and plumbing. It is the uncertainty that four 75 watt floods arranged in a square or rectangle will produce enough light to suit the homeowner that concerns me. With the number of fixtures (14 to 20 in four different areas) and related work involved for these people, I have offered to haywire four fixtures together and attach them to the ceiling with one screw through the top of the can at their planned locations and show them the results before cutting them in. That way, if they are not satisfied, I can rearrange them for 6 or even 8 fixtures before any cutting starts. After all, it doesn't matter what I think or what past practice is, it is what the results look like to the owners that matters in the end.

 

[220/221]

I know more than the typical homeowner so I am the one telling them what is best.

You will find that, the more you ask them for direction, the more difficult your job becomes.

We do this on a daily basis. Put them over the work spaces @ 24" max from the wall.

Ambient lighting = 6 cans laid out proportionally to the room to provide even light.

Task lighting = cans place directly over the task areas.

Accent lighting = cans placed to illuminate artwork or (inches from the wall)to graze highly textured walls like brick or rock.