How to keep remodel reasonable

[DAVID GRIGONIS]

This is a code issue in Portland, Or.

When installing A/C units a GFI protected outlet is required within 25 feet. Many times it is the desire of the installer to extend a two wire branch circuit through the wall of a bedroom of a, say 1955 ranch, and install a Water Proof Box with a GFI breaker and bubble cover. In addition the marking of "no ground present" is provided.

This has been deemed incorrect and further the interpretation is that 2 wire circuits cannot be extended under any circumstances. It is allowed however, to replace an existing 2 wire outlet with a GFI and a label stating "no ground present".

The prohibition of extending these circuits makes the modification of all older building difficult and expensive. Is there an answer that will sway the inspecting authority?

Thanks

 

[mdshunk]

The prohibition of extending these circuits makes the modification of all older building difficult and expensive. Is there an answer that will sway the inspecting authority?

I doubt it. It's not a rule peculiar to you. It's the same everywhere. If you have to pull a new circuit to the condensing unit, you might as well drag along another cable for the required service receptacle too.

 

[frizbeedog]

This is a code issue in Portland, Or.

When installing A/C units a GFI protected outlet is required within 25 feet. Many times it is the desire of the installer to extend a two wire branch circuit through the wall of a bedroom of a, say 1955 ranch, and install a Water Proof Box with a GFI breaker and bubble cover. In addition the marking of "no ground present" is provided.

This has been deemed incorrect and further the interpretation is that 2 wire circuits cannot be extended under any circumstances. It is allowed however, to replace an existing 2 wire outlet with a GFI and a label stating "no ground present".

The prohibition of extending these circuits makes the modification of all older building difficult and expensive. Is there an answer that will sway the inspecting authority?

Thanks

Yikes. News to me. Portland area too.

Why is it a problem to extend a two wire and GFCI protect it at the recep. outside, and label it "No Equipment Ground"?

I don't buy it, and who is telling you this? :-?

 

[Mr.Sparkle]

Or you can pull it in 3 wire and charge for one of those fancy all in one disconnects, if possible.

 

[frizbeedog]

Or you can pull it in 3 wire and charge for one of those fancy all in one disconnects, if possible.

You gonna use one leg of the AC circuit for the recep.?

A 3 wire for an AC and the recep.?

Are you sure about that?

 

[LarryFine]

You gonna use one leg of the AC circuit for the recep.?

A 3 wire for an AC and the recep.?

Are you sure about that?

Well, you can, as long as there's an insulated neutral and the branch-circuit breaker protects the receptacle's rating as well.

 

[frizbeedog]

Well, you can, as long as there's an insulated neutral and the branch-circuit breaker protects the receptacle's rating as well.

210.63

2008

Ok if you don't connect to the load side of the disco.?

 

[mdshunk]

It's not really all that often that I'm able to connect the service receptacle to the condensing unit circuit due to the fact that the condensing unit is seldom protected at less than 30A.

 

[Chamuit]

Or you can pull it in 3 wire and charge for one of those fancy all in one disconnects, if possible.

That's a great idea! Up-sale, plus-sale.

 

[DAVID GRIGONIS]

Yikes. News to me. Portland area too.

Why is it a problem to extend a two wire and GFCI protect it at the recep. outside, and label it "No Equipment Ground"?

I don't buy it, and who is telling you this? :-?

The chief electrical inspector of the City of Portland feels that article 406.3d is for the replacement of outlets not for the extension of circuit.

It is interesting that the FPN seems to direct us to that article when we look at 250.130 C "nongrounding receptacle replacement or branch circuit extensions"

It makes the addition of an outlet in a 1950s apartment building with the panel in the basement almost impossible without the GFI method.

 

[iwire]

Yikes. News to me. Portland area too.

Why is it a problem to extend a two wire and GFCI protect it at the recep. outside, and label it "No Equipment Ground"?

I don't buy it, and who is telling you this? :-?

The NEC allowance for installing a GFCI device on a two wire circuit applies only to receptacle replacements, not extensions of an existing circuit.

18-16 Log #1396 NEC-P18 Final Action: Reject
(406.3(D))
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: George Stolz, II, Pierce, CO

Recommendation: Add new text to read:
(D) Replacement. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 406.3(D)(1),
(2), and (3) as applicable. Receptacles installed to additions to existing branch
circuits shall be considered replacements for the purpose of this section.

Substantiation: The section in question (406.3(D)) effectively bends the
standard requirements for new installations to provide relief for the installer
when dealing with old work. Given the leniency put forth by this section
regarding replacement receptacles, it appears that old 2-wire installations, while
regrettable, do not present an “imminent danger to occupants” as stated in
80.5(B).
80.5(C) expresses that “Additions...shall not cause a building to become
unsafe...”. By expressing explicit guidelines for additions to existing circuits,
installers will be forbidden to connect an unbonded EGC between receptacles,
decreasing the shock hazard in the event of an unbonded fault. In many cases,
these existing circuits are extended to add receptacles to conform with 210.52.
The elimination of extension cord use should carry nearly as much importance
as EGC’s in this environment.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement: Section 406.3(D) addresses the installation of replacement
receptacles. This proposal addresses the installation of new receptacles.
Therefore, this text does not apply to this section. The panel rejects the concept
of adding new receptacles to an existing two-wire circuit and applying the
provisions for replacement receptacles rules. Replacement receptacles rules are
to increase the safety of older two-wire branch circuits where a replacement
receptacle is desired. Section 406.3(D)(3) does not address the extension of
existing two-wire circuits. The applicable rules for extending two-wire branch
circuits are contained in Section 250.130(C) and require the extension to
provide an equipment grounding conductor. The references to Sections 80.5(B)
and 80.5(C) are now contained in Annex G of the 2005 NEC as 80.9(B) and
(C). Annex G is not enforceable unless specifically adopted by local ordinance.

Number Eligible to Vote: 12

Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12
____________________________

 

[Mr.Sparkle]

It's not really all that often that I'm able to connect the service receptacle to the condensing unit circuit due to the fact that the condensing unit is seldom protected at less than 30A.

Oh yeah I had a bit of a brain fart there, sometimes it can be done though.

This is the type of disconnect I was talking about in case anyone has never seen one: http://www.lesco-inc.com/images/ACD-GFCI Combo Flyer-New.pdf

 

[frizbeedog]

The NEC allowance for installing a GFCI device on a two wire circuit applies only to receptacle replacements, not extensions of an existing circuit.

Nec 2008
406.3 (D) (3) (b)

(b) A non-grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.

As I read this I assume that I may replace a non-grounding type receptacle with a GFCI and extend it. If not, why the wording in the last sentence.

I'll paraphrase:

From Frizbeedog's codebook for dummies:

"Hey you, dummy. Yeah, you, holding that new fangled 12-2 with a ground. If you're going to do that, don't connect the pretty ground wire they gave you with that cable, between the GFCI and any receptacle you feed from it."

P.S. At the time of this reply I have yet to find a publisher for my new codebook.