HVAC contractor concerns

[Smash]

I'm an electrician rewiring a older home. I cut a 18" trench in the attic floor gable to gable drilled all joists to enable access to all of 2nd floor. Had drilled 3 holes in each and neatly completed the 2nd floor. The HVAC contractor uses my cut floor trench and cuts his return vent into the 2nd floor ceiling. He makes a cardboard square installs his return duct and tapes around the opening. Now underneath there is a vent cover and all my wires are running through. All he had to do was move over 2' and cut his own attic floor hole. How legal is this ? Any danger ? Can I be liable ? Does he have to remove it and cut his own. Just want to get my facts right before I approach him. It was obviously my trench installed by yours truly. Thx for any clarification on this subject.

 

[gadfly56]

I'm an electrician rewiring a older home. I cut a 18" trench in the attic floor gable to gable drilled all joists to enable access to all of 2nd floor. Had drilled 3 holes in each and neatly completed the 2nd floor. The HVAC contractor uses my cut floor trench and cuts his return vent into the 2nd floor ceiling. He makes a cardboard square installs his return duct and tapes around the opening. Now underneath there is a vent cover and all my wires are running through. All he had to do was move over 2' and cut his own attic floor hole. How legal is this ? Any danger ? Can I be liable ? Does he have to remove it and cut his own. Just want to get my facts right before I approach him. It was obviously my trench installed by yours truly. Thx for any clarification on this subject.

If you are working for a GC take it up with him, although if he's the crusty sort he may sneer at you and tell you to take care of it yourself. Then approach the HVAC contractor. Politely inform him of his error. Remind him he's not the only one who can wield a pair of tin snips. If you get a rep as a doormat, other contractors will walk all over you all day long.

 

[petersonra]

I am not quite visualising what happened but as long as he did not damage your wiring there is nothing wrong with what he did as far as the codes are concerned.

Did he inconvenience you in some way?

 

[gadfly56]

I am not quite visualising what happened but as long as he did not damage your wiring there is nothing wrong with what he did as far as the codes are concerned.

Did he inconvenience you in some way?

It sounds like his cables are now in the return air plenum for which they are not likely to be rated, although I'm having a hard time visualizing as well. I really hope he didn't just cut the bottom cord of the trusses. Also it isn't clear, but possibly the duct work is now resting on some of the cables and with vibration over time will inevitably wear through the insulation leading to one or more unpleasant surprises.

 

[petersonra]

It sounds like his cables are now in the return air plenum for which they are not likely to be rated, although I'm having a hard time visualizing as well. I really hope he didn't just cut the bottom cord of the trusses. Also it isn't clear, but possibly the duct work is now resting on some of the cables and with vibration over time will inevitably wear through the insulation leading to one or more unpleasant surprises.

if the hvac contractor ended up making the cavity the wires are in some kind of plenum I think that might well be a code violation. If so, the electrician should report the violation to the GC for resolution.

 

[mopowr steve]

I'm imagining it will come down to.....are the wires now running parallel within the environmental air space (code violation) or are they mearly crossing within that space (non violation)

 

[GoldDigger]

I'm imagining it will come down to.....are the wires now running parallel within the environmental air space (code violation) or are they mearly crossing within that space (non violation)

Also perhaps whether the wires are now accessible to non-qualified personnel through the access hatch the OP mentioned?
(Which I do not understand yet.)

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

I would talk to the GC and HVAC contractor and express your concerns about the location of the vent cover.
I find that most professional tradesmen are willing to work with each other.
The important step is to get the dialogue started.
Communication is huge in getting a situations like
this resolved.

 

[ceb58]

Also perhaps whether the wires are now accessible to non-qualified personnel through the access hatch the OP mentioned?
(Which I do not understand yet.)

I understand what the HVAC guy did. Basically if you open the return grill and remove the filter you should see the wires running thru the joist. Which now puts the wire in the return air space.

 

[JFletcher]

Unclear here as well.. Smash, please post some pictures of what the issue(s) are.

 

[Martin B]

Does this guy still need you to terminate his condensing unit and other equipment?

 

[David Goodman]

Air in ducts and fluids in drain/waste/sewer lines don't take turns and bends as well as electrical wires do. The HVAC installer was likely thinking, "Why did that electrician run wires right where I needed to run my duct. If I don't put the duct here, I'll have a 25 CFM drop in air flow."

This sounds like a homeowner contracted remodel. So, no GC was coordinating the work. It is pretty tough when you don't have a chance to talk with other contractors working on a project in order to make both your installs easier.

 

[gadfly56]

Air in ducts and fluids in drain/waste/sewer lines don't take turns and bends as well as electrical wires do. The HVAC installer was likely thinking, "Why did that electrician run wires right where I needed to run my duct. If I don't put the duct here, I'll have a 25 CFM drop in air flow."

This sounds like a homeowner contracted remodel. So, no GC was coordinating the work. It is pretty tough when you don't have a chance to talk with other contractors working on a project in order to make both your installs easier.

This is like something out of "Everything I Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten". If it's not yours, don't touch it. Period. If there's a performance issue at stake, call and talk. Simples.

 

[David Goodman]

This is like something out of "Everything I Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten". If it's not yours, don't touch it. Period. If there's a performance issue at stake, call and talk. Simples.

Unfortunately, many people are just to lazy to talk, they simply don't care, or they don't know any better.

I appreciate being allowed on this forum so that I can learn more about the concerns of electricians. I don't want to be the one who created this problem.

 

[kwired]

This is like something out of "Everything I Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten". If it's not yours, don't touch it. Period. If there's a performance issue at stake, call and talk. Simples.

Many mechanical guys seem to have the attitude their installs are more important then every one else's and will do that kind of stuff without warning.

They also like to block access to junction boxes, unstrap raceways so they can get their own stuff into position the way want it in and just leave them that way and not tell the electrician or occasionally put a tie wire on an electric raceway for supporting their stuff.

 

[Smash]

Unclear here as well.. Smash, please post some pictures of what the issue(s) are.

Will be back tomorrow and will take some pics. Basically he used my already cut trench in the tongue and groove nailed down attic floor that I used for my romex raceway. He flexed his return line on top of the romex raceway used a piece of cardboard to attach his flex and screwed it down. ( Looks like .... by the way) down below he cut a large return vent and installed his register. Now inside his register are all my second floor circuits. This all comes from the unit newly installed in the attic. Combo gas furnace and AC air handler. My only question is is it a code violation because if not it's doubtful anything gets done about. I'm certainly not scared to confront this hack but a little code ammo would help. Can't really find a article relating to this other than running parallel. Pics to follow

 

[Smash]

This is like something out of "Everything I Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten". If it's not yours, don't touch it. Period. If there's a performance issue at stake, call and talk. Simples.

Well that logic doesn't fly this time around. All he had to do is cut his own hole right next to my trench would not effect the cfm of anything. I think it was hot and another trip to the truck for a saw wasn't happening, cardboard was handy so will just hack it in period simple. This is the problem, no one cares anymore. The home owner will never come up here it will be fine. Cardboard and tape should last then charge 50K Tough to find companies with people who still care about the job and the client. It's all about get in get out and get yours.

 

[JFletcher]

The NM running next to flex duct isnt a code violation afaik, however if he has turned that joist/stud bay into an open return, then there is likely a violation of 300.22, probably some mechanical codes as well. You cant run NM parallel thru a return like that, but it wasnt a return when you ran the wire; it's on him. Cant wait to see the pics.

 

[David Goodman]

Well that logic doesn't fly this time around. All he had to do is cut his own hole right next to my trench would not effect the cfm of anything. I think it was hot and another trip to the truck for a saw wasn't happening, cardboard was handy so will just hack it in period simple. This is the problem, no one cares anymore. The home owner will never come up here it will be fine. Cardboard and tape should last then charge 50K Tough to find companies with people who still care about the job and the client. It's all about get in get out and get yours.

I'll like to post the pictures on an HVAC forum as well. I'm sure it will be considered "hack" work there also. Sorry, you are having to deal with someone who is less than a professional. The HO should have the right to withhold payment until the HVAC contractor has corrected the problem. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with that.

 

[Smash]

Looks like the one picture of the second floor vent uploaded having trouble with the attic ones I will keep trying. Notice you can see right up through no filter no nothing.