hydromassage bathtub

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I was reading up and found where I have been wasting wire. It looks to me that you only need the EGC on the gfi plug for a hydromessage tub. You also need to bond the tub, but you don't need an additional EGC for the frame that goes back to the service.

680 VII

Everyone reading it the same?
 

infinity

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Since the tub circulation system is usually all plastic all that you really need is an EGC in the branch circuit and nothing more.

680.74 Bonding.
All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The bonding jumper shall be connected to the terminal on the circulating pump motor that is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not be required to be connected to a double insulated circulating pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be required for equipotential bonding in the area of the hydromassage bathtub and shall not be required to be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode.
 

Dennis Alwon

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but you don't need an additional EGC for the frame that goes back to the service.
I agree but the wire you mention is not an EGC but a bonding conductor. It would be necessary if the water pipes on the tub were metallic instead of plastic.

Now, some will argue that since the tub manufacturers require this bond back to the panel then it needs to be installed. I have never installed it because I am a rebel. :grin:
 

augie47

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I agree but the wire you mention is not an EGC but a bonding conductor. It would be necessary if the water pipes on the tub were metallic instead of plastic.

Now, some will argue that since the tub manufacturers require this bond back to the panel then it needs to be installed. I have never installed it because I am a rebel. :grin:

some? (raises hand).
The last Jucuzzi brand hydrotub I saw still had instructions that required a bond to the panel of local bond. (see pg 18 attached View attachment jucuzzipg18.doc ), and where that is the case I still require that per 110.3(B)
 

infinity

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some? (raises hand).
The last Jucuzzi brand hydrotub I saw still had instructions that required a bond to the panel of local bond. (see pg 18 attached View attachment 5184 ), and where that is the case I still require that per 110.3(B)

IMO if you use the words approved local bond then you only need to provide what it required by the NEC.
 

iwire

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Now, some will argue that since the tub manufacturers require this bond back to the panel then it needs to be installed. I have never installed it because I am a rebel. :grin:

Is 110.3(B) part of the code or not?

Just because we may not agree with it ... or feel the manufacturers are just covering their rear does not change the rules.

Install per code and charge the customer accordingly.
 

infinity

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I don't read that the same way.

IMO those instructions require 8 AWG to the panel or 8 AWG to an approved local bond.


If the local bond (whatever that means) is the EGC in the branch circuit then your #8 would someone need to connect to it not all the way back to the panel.
 

iwire

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If the local bond (whatever that means) is the EGC in the branch circuit then your #8 would someone need to connect to it not all the way back to the panel.


An approved local bond could be a copper water line.

It is amazing to me how much people want to avoid doing the work we get paid to do.:confused:
 

jetlag

Senior Member
I agree but the wire you mention is not an EGC but a bonding conductor. It would be necessary if the water pipes on the tub were metallic instead of plastic.

Now, some will argue that since the tub manufacturers require this bond back to the panel then it needs to be installed. I have never installed it because I am a rebel. :grin:

The AHJ here will give you another flag to wave besides the rebel flag :grin::grin:
 

Dennis Alwon

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The AHJ here will give you another flag to wave besides the rebel flag :grin::grin:

We have discussed this for years with the inspectors etc and they all look the other way. Yes, Bob, I realize it is code 110.3(B) but I am willing to chance it since the local inspectors all feel the same way. IMO, this violation is almost as insignificant as installing a staple 13" from a box instead of 12". Taking a jumper from the motor to a copper water pipe is fine but back to the panel is ridiculous. Swimming pools don't require a bond back to a panel but the dang manufacturer of a hydromassage tub decides to cover their butts and we must oblige them. :mad:
 

augie47

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To those of you who are not inspectors, take a moment to look at this thru the inspector's eyes:
Step 1:
You want to save $5 worth of #8 wire and a 1/2 labor on your rough-in.
The instructions call for a #8 to the panel or approved bond (which, I agree with iwire, could be a bonded metallic piping system).
I agree with you that the requirement is unnecessary and you omit it.
Step 2: The heater shorts out and the homeowner receives a "tingle" or is convinced that she did and is now traumatized by bathtubs.
Theres a lawyer in the family. Soon the manufacturer, distributor, builder, electrician and inspector are sued.
Step 3:
The builder has gone "belly-up" and left town long ago. The distributor and manufacturer show up in court with a gaggle of lawyers and tons of documentation. The electrician says he asked you, the inspector, and you said it was not necessary to follow the instructions.
And you say ?????
 

iwire

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We have discussed this for years with the inspectors etc and they all look the other way. Yes, Bob, I realize it is code 110.3(B) but I am willing to chance it since the local inspectors all feel the same way. IMO, this violation is almost as insignificant as installing a staple 13" from a box instead of 12". Taking a jumper from the motor to a copper water pipe is fine but back to the panel is ridiculous. Swimming pools don't require a bond back to a panel but the dang manufacturer of a hydromassage tub decides to cover their butts and we must oblige them. :mad:

I cannot agree that a bonding conductor is equal to a cable support.

IMO you are not doing the job the customer has hired an EC to do, if they wanted it done incorrectly they could hire a handyman.

I have often been required by power companies to run 4/0 bare to ground rods? Is it necessary for safety? I doubt it but none the less we do it.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
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CA
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Building inspector
To those of you who are not inspectors, take a moment to look at this thru the inspector's eyes:
Step 1:
You want to save $5 worth of #8 wire and a 1/2 labor on your rough-in.
The instructions call for a #8 to the panel or approved bond (which, I agree with iwire, could be a bonded metallic piping system).
I agree with you that the requirement is unnecessary and you omit it.
Step 2: The heater shorts out and the homeowner receives a "tingle" or is convinced that she did and is now traumatized by bathtubs.
Theres a lawyer in the family. Soon the manufacturer, distributor, builder, electrician and inspector are sued.
Step 3:
The builder has gone "belly-up" and left town long ago. The distributor and manufacturer show up in court with a gaggle of lawyers and tons of documentation. The electrician says he asked you, the inspector, and you said it was not necessary to follow the instructions.
And you say ?????
The inspector say's,"I inspect 10 or more jobs a day. How the heck do you expect me to remember this one job? If it was required and we did not see it, it is not our fault, the installer still needs to follow the code and installation instructions." :grin:

The reality is more like this, you are doing a rough in and the plumber and builder can't find their butts by falling on them, let alone the installation instructions for the tub they are going to install. Half the time I can't find out if the tub is a small "air bubbler" that need only be tied onto the bath receptacle circuit, or a two circuit tub that has circulation motors and heaters".
 
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Dennis Alwon

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I cannot agree that a bonding conductor is equal to a cable support.

IMO you are not doing the job the customer has hired an EC to do, if they wanted it done incorrectly they could hire a handyman.

I have often been required by power companies to run 4/0 bare to ground rods? Is it necessary for safety? I doubt it but none the less we do it.

Bob my point is if it were dangerous the NEC would require it for both hydromassage and pools. I know the legalities and I understand them. Truth be told we hardly ever install hydromassage tubs anymore and the ones I did install didn't have heaters-- correction. One had a heater but I never read the manufacturers instructions.

I did mention in my post that it may be required by the manufacturers instruction and it was my decision to rebel. I will probably still rebel. You can lecture all you want but I am stubborn on this one.
 

Dennis Alwon

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You... stubborn ?? pshawwwwwwww :grin:
Das me. Well we all have our idiosyncracies.. I remember Bob running aluminum se cable in conduit under ground for temp power to the job sites. Illegal yes but.... IMO that is more dangerous then the bond but if something happens.....


Till I came to the forum I didn't even realize that the manufacturer had any say other than what their equipment was designed for.
 
hydromessage bath tub

hydromessage bath tub

I am not apposed to work for sure, but the builder for whom I work has to cut his costs to remain profitable and continue making the little houses.

If the ground is necessary I would install it, but if not required by code, it would fall under the category of things I would do if it was a perfect world.
 
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