I am a vicitm of AFCI

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Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

I'm not a liberty to say as I took and oath of death but you would be surprised to know what manufacturer make AFCIs some others. It is often less expensive to have another manufacture name brand for you which is often determined by volume. Some come out of the same plant.
So be somewhat careful in concluding that one AFCI works better than another as they may be exactly the same darned thing on the inside.
Most manufacturers will share product where it makes sense.
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

I'm not a liberty to say as I took and oath of death but you would be surprised to know what manufacturer make AFCIs some others.
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Hmmmm....with only four major manufacturers of distribution equipment left, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

GE
SQD
Siemens/Murray
CH

My own guess is that GE and CH are the culprits. I'm guessing this because a GE 50 amp GFCI breaker is exactly the same as a CH one.

Taking apart some defective AFCI's could be very revealing. :D
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

Wisconsin State Electrical Code says we do NOT need to install AFCI circuits this code cycle. The state inspector is watching the recent recall on AFCI. 2008 is another story...
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

I thought I remembered it that Siemens made both Cuttler Hammer and Murray. And there was a further connection up stream with GE.

That would leave only two or three manufacturers.

I might be completely incorrect on that though. Or it's possible things have changed.

Editted typo

[ February 01, 2005, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
The way it happened was I hit one of the "scene" buttons on the remote and instantaneously the breaker tripped. I saw the leds light on the dimmers as the lights were comming on but that was only a split second then they went out. :confused:
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If the circuit notices no fault until you hit a button on the remote, it sounds to me like its not the AFCI, its the waveform your device puts out. It is probably recognized as a pattern that is similar to that of a certain type of fault. Then again you could have faulty equipment and when you hit the button it causes a fault. I would bet 1000 to 1 its not the AFCI. Its the equipment. I would like to see the equipment hooked up to an Oscilloscope and function generator .
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

Change the batteries in your remote!

Hit the remote 5 times on the top and once on the bottom. Hit the Power display key while holding Guide and Menu. And low and behold that won't fix your problem! :D
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

So be somewhat careful in concluding that one AFCI works better than another as they may be exactly the same darned thing on the inside.
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But maybe they aren't. That's why I asked him to try it! I understand manufacturers do this, and I should not have said that I bet the Homeline will work because I have no idea. I didn't mean to be promoting one over the other, But I think it is an Excellent way to determine if it is a problem that only occurs with a certain brand. If the Homeline, or any other brand for that matter, doesn't trip under the same circumstances, we are on to something MAJOR. I have no idea what, but something!!! It won't mean one is better or one is defective, but it will tell us there IS a major difference between the two and give us more of an understanding into what is happening and why.
Any luck Scott?

Dave
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

I can not help, but notice several people saying to replace AFCI breakers with GFCI. Am I mistaken or are these to suppose to do two totally different jobs. AFCI detect a break in the wire or nail or some thing making the current arc across trying to make it past break or foreign object, As the GFCI are made to detect any difference between grounded conductor and grounding conductor. For protecting a person in wet or other shock hazardous situations. So AFCI is more of protection for equipment, and GFCI are meant for protection of personnel.
Am I correct? If so why do so many people (not jus here but other sites as well) recommend changing the two?
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

You're right Dave.
With product that comes off of the same manufacturer's production line there are tolerances that are allowed.
I would like to think that these tolerances would be quite tight with SS devices but, depending upon the actual point of installation and the dynamics of that load, when they get put to the ragged edge some may work fine while other don't.
This is true with the plain Jane thermal magnetic breakers where the thermal is +-10% and the magnetic is anywhere from +-20% and more. Depending upon where they are calibrated when you replace one that trips with another that doesn't it is assumed that the original one in defective.
That's the problem with working with this electrical stuff. If a device trips, unless one is financially capable to have some sophisticated recording devices able to capture the event the only thing that we have to go on is our experience in assuming what caused the trip and the option of replacing the device if we suspect it to be the problem.
Then, can you conclude if the device is defective without having it tested? It will never happen.
For my own curiosity, as and application engineer I was able to get a device back on a test stand to a calibration check by knowing the warranty manager but it is not commonly done.
Dave
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

electricaldoc,
They are in no way interchangeable in what they are intended to do.
The GFCI is limited to its ability to compare the line current to the neutral current which it expects to find less than a 5ma difference. It the difference is 5ma or greater then it concludes that the unaccounted for current is a ground fault and trips. UL allows the calibration range to be 4-6ma.
The AFCI has a more complex sort of computer built into it in that it has been programmed to recognize the characteristics of an arc. Along with this the AFCIs does monitor the L-N current also because it is a good indicator that there is an arcing fault to ground. I'm not sure if there is a calibration standard for it but the sensitivity is about 30ma which is far above that of the GFCI of 5ma.
The GFCI is more apt to nuisance trip because of the type of load, loads of which may store current for a brief time making it appear to the GFCI that the current is not balanced between the L-N conductors. If the AFCI trips beacause of this the GFCI wouldn't have a prayer in the application.
Dave
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

Originally posted by renosteinke:
Try one of the new GFI's....unlike AFCi's, the new (made since Jan 2004) GFCI's are expected to me much more resistant to nuisance tripping. I suspect that the AFCI is being fooled by the electronics in you dimmers...or, as someone else suggested, the surge protectors.

Or, merhaps your technique needs improvement...like GFI's, AFCi's can be tripped by something as simple as a screw head being too close to the mud ring!
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This is what I am refering too. From my understanding they GFCI has totaly differnt use than AFCI. So replacing one with other would change the purpose for which it was inatended.
Correct me if I am wrong.

P.S. I AM NOT INTENDING TO PICK ON ANY ONE ON THIS SITE I SEE IT EVERY WHERE.
just wondering if it is miss quote or if my thought prosses is wrong.


Thanks again for any input

Dan
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

I think I could have the solution to your problem if not someone elses. How many AFCIs are in your panel and are they stacked? If you have 2 stacked, separate them. AFCI's get hotter than normal OCPD's. This is what I had an inspector told me today. He said he did not put a breaker on either top nor bottom of the AFCI. He popped out the knockouts to get air cirrculation into the panel. Instead of leaving the blanks out, he put snap in's back in, but he drill little holes in them. This allowed air to circulate and fixed his problem. It doesnt sould like this is your problem, but you never know, it could be heat buildup. Before going to this extreme, try removing the breakers around the AFCI's and see if the airflow helps.
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

I have heard of the heat problem and separating the breakers. Now as far as leaving an empty space in between, that leads to wasting valuable space of a panel. What happens when the code expands down the road and requires this on more circuits? Perhaps it will come down to putting these in a sub panel, perhaps a special one with proper cooling.

One last thing, in regards to drilling holes in the above post, I think some inspectors would fail this because the holes were not intended to be there and violates the listing. Just my thoughts.
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

Just take the AFCI's out and install standard breakers. Why put yourself through all that BS and waste your hard earned money....sometimes more is not better.
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

bfd,
Removing the AFCIs and installing standard breakers is not an option. The AFCIs are required by the code. Not installing them as required would subject you and your company to civil and possibly criminal penalties if there was an incident. In the tragic event of a fatality, I could see the electrician spending time in prison for manslaughter.
Don
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

Don, in defense of BFD AFCI'S are not required in this situation as it is not a bedroom. I installed them because I bought into the hype of added protection. Any way it tripped again! I have it narrowed down to the remote master switch when it sends an IR signal back to the master in the main switch location. It is not everytime but when it does happen it is with this action only. I am going to call Siemens and see what they have to say.
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

Don, I believe electricmanscott, the original poster, not only put the required AFCIs in the new house that he built he put in a bunch more figuring more is better. Now he has a nuisance tripping problem with one of those extra ones as I understand it so it would probably be OK if he replaced the one that's not required by code with a standard breaker. Replacing the breaker with a standard breaker would be the simplest thing to do and just call it a day. But I think we're all curious as to why the thing is tripping when it shouldn't be.
I would have installed more in my home but I have those 3w home-run circuits to my bedroom areas.
Dave
 
Re: I am a vicitm of AFCI

But I think we're all curious as to why the thing is tripping when it shouldn't be.
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Probably because they were rushed into the market long before they were ready for prime time.
Don
 
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