I AM the AHJ

[George Stolz]

A spinoff of "I am the NRA."

There were a couple decent calls: exposed lamps in the cans in the master closet, good catch. A couple of exterior fixtures were undeniably saggy.

There was a questionable call: The brackets that supported the fixtures outside (and by reputation, the bathroom too - I didn't get that far) were not grounded. The fixtures themselves were grounded, but the bracket wasn't. In addition, the brackets were installed in pancake boxes (Allied 3.5 cu. in.) attached through the pancake into the OSB behind by sheetrock screws.

I readily admit, that was cheesy. But I don't believe a violation existed. I called the AHJ and left a message, and the GC wanted an update, so I let him know. (He's actually a former employee of my company, but that's neither here nor there.)

When my call was (to my shock) returned, I admitted outright that I thought the installation was cheesy, but went on to explain that I saw no violation, and could he please cite a reference.

He said he didn't have the code memorized, but that the bracket had to be grounded. I told him it was, the nuts have to cinched down in order to get the fixture to seal tight against the wall, effectively grounding the nuts and screws. I then hit him with this:

410.18(A) Exposed Conductive Parts. Exposed metal parts shall be grounded or insulated from ground and other conducting surfaces or be inaccessible to unqualified personnel. Lamp tie wires, mounting screws, clips, and decorative bands on glass spaced at least 38 mm (1 1/2 in.) from lamp terminals shall not be required to be grounded.

To which, he replied, "But it has to be grounded."
To which, I replied, "But this section seems to disagree with that. Take a keyless for example..."
He interrupted, "But if the hot is scarred, and comes into contact with that bracket when the fixture is down, then it will be hot."
(I wish I had said, Why are you taking down hot fixtures?

So, who's right? People more familiar with the code might be able to support him. Rest assured, I am going to find out who trimmed it and put a foot in their fanny, but I stand by it as being compliant.

Thoughts?

 

[physis]

Re: I AM the AHJ

I think you may have been unnecessarily confrontational.

 

[physis]

Re: I AM the AHJ

That's alright George. Check out the composure in this thread.

Edit: I thought I might as well throw in the link.

I should also be specific. My composure.

[ June 29, 2005, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[canadian]

Re: I AM the AHJ

A couple of exterior fixtures were undeniably saggy

Maybee these were the ones he removed to inspect for a ground on the bracket!
I do agree with him on the sheetrock screw thing.A pancake comes with 8-32 threads for a reason.Im guilty of using a self drilling #10 Tec screw myself on occasion...but I always feel like Im cheating just a little.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: I AM the AHJ

Originally posted by physis:
I think you may have been unnecessarily confrontational.

What the heck does this mean. George did the right thing. He asked for a code reference, he questioned an official on something that is obviously questionable, and he is working on repairing the work. Where is the "Unnecessary confrontation"?
George next time just say yes massah I fixin whatcha want. :roll: then run with your tail between your legs.

The fixture strap is not an exposed metal part and is grounded simply by the fact that the fixture is securely mounted to it. I would like to see the code reference on this.
Where exactly is the violation in using drywall screws directly into the building?

 

[rsvetti]

Re: I AM the AHJ

I feel like I'm going out on a ledge with this one as I don't have the print right in front of me...

I seem to recall reading something recently stating that tecs cannot be used as grounding condunctors... Immediately following the description of this CODE (I think) was a brief elaboration stating the reasoning behind this.

Though I can't recall off the top of my head, the print or the reference of this:

"a minimum of two threads must make contact to constitute an equipment grounding or system grounding conductor." (or something to that affect)

Furthermore, it seems to me that zinc oxide is perhaps not the ideal conductor to begin with nor is it among the more sturdy of sturdy of mechanical supports as they are really weenie under fire (pull-chain switches or whatever). Drywall screws of course, being primarly constructed of zinc oxide.

--Any takers on that one? .... ...
Yes, I think that's going to bother me

[ June 30, 2005, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: rsvetti ]

 

[davedottcom]

Re: I AM the AHJ

Originally posted by electricmanscott:

Where exactly is the violation in using drywall screws directly into the building?

That's what I was wondering. Drywall is a lot heavier then most light fixtures...even heavier than a lot of ceiling fans. If you ask me, if the screw is rated for withstanding the weight of drywall, spackle, textured ceiling & a few layers of paint...I think it's capable of holding up a silly little bath light.


"He said he didn't have the code memorized..."

That sounds like a "rehearsed" line he probably uses Every time someone questions him! He thinks it gets him out of having to find the correct article.
"I don't have the code memorized so, I'll have to get back to you with them" would have been an acceptable answer!

Dave

 

[George Stolz]

Re: I AM the AHJ

Originally posted by davedottcom:
"I don't have the code memorized so, I'll have to get back to you with them" would have been an acceptable answer!

Maybe you're thinking of this:

250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment. Grounding conductors and bonding jumpers shall be connected by exothermic welding, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other listed means. Connection devices or fittings that depend solely on solder shall not be used. Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors to enclosures.

To be clear, that was never done. The drywall screws were only used for support of the fixture, not for grounding.

Scott wrote:
George next time just say yes massah I fixin whatcha want.

I was friendly but firm, but it's impossible to argue with, "I am the AHJ."

The beauty is, I am not going to be present to rough a house in my normal project, in the same jurisdiction. So whoever slides in is probably going to miss some pet peeves. So I know I just caused that house to fail.

 

[sandsnow]

Re: I AM the AHJ

I wish more people would confront me or question me on calls that I make. It's a learing experience for everyone, although I would regret excess time wasted by a contractor if I was wrong. I have no problem backing down, and will let it go and not make you do something just so I can win.
That being said, if you call me you better be prepared to cite the code (like George) and not say something lame like we always did it this way. I will give you a code section on the correction, except for stupid stuff like strapping and KO plugs. You give me a section in your argument.
I do my best to be accessible and fair and freindly to people regardless if the above sounded a bit harsh.

 

[physis]

Re: I AM the AHJ

By Scott:

What the heck does this mean

I don't know. I think I was feeling bad for authority cause I just got finished being all mad at 'em in another thread.

 

[mdshunk]

Re: I AM the AHJ

Originally posted by georgestolz:

Lesson learned: Call the boss before the GC and AHJ!!!

Holy cow, George. I was under the impression that you were the boss. If you stirred all this up without letting the boss know what was going on, that's pretty serious in my book. Not to cry wolf, but I have known guys to get in some pretty serious hot water with employers doing stuff like this, whether they were right or wrong.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: I AM the AHJ

I am not one to back down easy when i am right or they lack a code to make them right.But there is a thing call chain of command.And also a thing about being dollar smart.If it's easy and not costly it might be best to just let him win and not hold up the job.Perhaps go after him later to get it squired away.Have had plenty of inspectors back down when i proved them wrong.Most have no problem in taking it.In gray areas we usually can work something fair out.Never back the inspector into a corner that he can't get out of without loosing face,just a bad way to go unless really needed.In this case the inspector is really pushing his luck

 

[sandsnow]

Re: I AM the AHJ

Originally posted by jimwalker:
And also a thing about being dollar smart.If it's easy and not costly it might be best to just let him win and not hold up the job.

I understand what you're saying and was there myself before becoming an inspector.

It is my belief that this way of doing things has caused the less than knoweldgeable inspectors to flourish.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: I AM the AHJ

George, I got your back man. We can win this thing. Don't back down now.

 

[charlie]

Re: I AM the AHJ

Have you noticed that normally the best inspectors are the guys that were in a construction trade first and were good at their job? They have had trouble with the inspectors and know what it is like to be on the "other side". They know the Code pretty well and are not afraid to be wrong. They also know when it is technically wrong but it is not really hurting anything to just let it go. There are some of those guys on this forum.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: I AM the AHJ

Originally posted by mdshunk:
If you stirred all this up without letting the boss know what was going on, that's pretty serious in my book.

Well, my first intention was to clarify what "No sheetrock screws" meant. And each unit had the exact same thing written down, in the same order. That's all the correction said about that, and I was confused. Maybe a little irritated.

You're right though--lesson learned. My boss is a pretty cool guy about this sort of thing, so I'm lucky there.

My boss is pretty cool all around, I am just financially dissatisfied. Worthless guys get hired off the street for $4 more than I make, and after a while loyalty to the employer starts to slip.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: I AM the AHJ

Four dollar$ more on the hour george? Whaat,does you boss hire the Plumbers too?

 

[tx2step]

Re: I AM the AHJ

Originally posted by sandsnow:
I wish more people would confront me or question me on calls that I make. It's a learing experience for everyone, although I would regret excess time wasted by a contractor if I was wrong.

Larry -- if only all inspectors were like you are. Many are, but a whole lot of them aren't.

I just want an inspector to be qualified, open minded and fair -- if I'm wrong, then I have no problem admitting it and doing what is right to rectify the problem.

Everyone makes mistakes, and I actually hope that an inspector will catch one of my goofs so I can correct it.

One of the things that I've found is that the more knowledgeable and qualified an inspector is, the easier he usually is to work with.

 

[rsvetti]

Re: I AM the AHJ

Note on drywall screws:

To the best of my knowledge (as knowbody else seems to know), there is no set code for spans of drywall screws in drywall. I can tell you however, that it is most general hung to the measurements of "6" in the seam, 1' in the feild" though spans can average from 6-8 inches in the feild (or center portion of drywall). When calculating the load bearing capacity of a drywall screw, you must consider that the weight of the drywall is span accross an average of 65 screws and that's the smallest size sheet. Now, I don't recall off the top of my head what a 4x8 sheet of drywall weighs these days, so I can't give the actual weight distributed to each screw; but if you like, I can get back to you on that.

In the meantime, I can tell you that their load bearing capacity is usually about 2.5 lbs on the high end, 5 lbs max (that's in a direction perpendicular to the length of the shank fellas).

[ July 01, 2005, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: rsvetti ]

 

[allenwayne]

Re: I AM the AHJ

Charlie i couldn`t agree more with your statement
about having inspectors that had to actually work their way up are the most accomidating ones out there.As far as drwall screw for fivture mounting that is my pet peeve they have a low tensile strength.Even though 314 27 excp.allows a fixture to be wall mounted on a 1 gang pvc box I would think the UL listing is for a machine screw IE : 6/32 not a drywall screw