I had a Weird One Today

Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
You all know I am retired but when my daughter called I had to pick up the tools as again. She said there was a brief power outage (secs) and when the power was restored the receptacles in their home office stopped working. I went over there (10 minutes from here) and saw an afci tripped (Siemens Brand). I Reset it and a light on the breaker came on and went off and then a few seconds later it tripped.

Figuring a bad breaker I moved it to the breaker above and doubled it up --same thing happened. Next step- went upstairs and saw a treadmill (small walking platform with no handles) that had been working fine for months. I unplugged it and the breaker stayed on when I reset it. Re-plugged it and everything stayed on. Hmmmmm, must be a fluke

So, I moved the wires back to the original breaker after reconnecting the tread machine and then turned the breaker on. Pop again.

Unplugged the tread mill (Peloton, I believe) . The breaker stayed on, then I plugged it in and all was fine. You cannot have the power off when you plug it in because it will trip when you reset the breaker. If the power is on and you plug it in then all is good.

I will add that the machine starts talking to you when you plug it in. So there is something in the electronics of those afci that does like the noise from the treadmill when the breaker is setting up.

Anyone else have this happen... first for me.
 
Not specific to treadmills, but yes to power tools with a soft start.

I've been saying for at least fifteen years now that it is not arcs that cause AFCIs to trip it's electronics and what they do to the waveform that causes a trip. The only thing that an AFCI is guaranteed not to trip on is an arc.
 
ActionDave said:
Not specific to treadmills, but yes to power tools with a soft start.

I've been saying for at least fifteen years now that it is not arcs that cause AFCIs to trip it's electronics and what they do to the waveform that causes a trip. The only thing that an AFCI is guaranteed not to trip on is an arc.
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It does appear to be the noise from the treadmill that bothers the breaker when the breaker boots up.
 
Eddie702 said:
@Dennis Alwon hope you got paid for your hard work LOL
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Your kids can never pay you enough... But usually, we don't want it anyway.

I had to go over to my daughter's house to install an outlet for their garage door opener (her husband is a great guy, but inept with tools...). She wanted to know what I wanted for doing it, I jokingly said "another grandchild". She obliged about a year later! Best payday ever!
 
I have a few poor man's AFCi diagnostic breakers I carry they are Siemens GFPE QE115 and QE120. I'd pop a QE115 breaker in there and leave it a week see if it trips, it takes a 30mA ground fault for it to trip.
If the nuisance trip returns on that she needs a new treadmill.
Siemens now makes a fancy diagnostic AFCI breaker that you pop in and connect to your phone via Bluetooth that I have not tried it yet.
 
Jraef said:
Your kids can never pay you enough... But usually, we don't want it anyway.

I had to go over to my daughter's house to install an outlet for their garage door opener (her husband is a great guy, but inept with tools...). She wanted to know what I wanted for doing it, I jokingly said "another grandchild". She obliged about a year later! Best payday ever!
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Be careful how much work you do for her 🤦🏼‍♂️
 
Little Bill said:
That wouldn't help on the AFCIs that don't have the GFPE/GFCI in them.
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When I install new AFCI's and they trip it can become a time black hole. For me it's a quick sanity check of the system, saves on warranty diagnostic labor and gives the customer something concrete they can go back to the product manufacturer with.
three recent examples include;
  • Customer with a power strip with some AV home theater gear was randomly tripping a AFCI swapped in a GFPE tripped that within a day they were able to get the component repaired (a filter cap).
  • Customer had provided some lights after they were installed AFCI tripped occasionaly, 15A GFPE tripped immediately, turns out a neutral was making contact with some metal parts in the fixture. (not sure why the AFCI only occasionaly tripped was easy to spot with GFPE)
  • Another one was a GFCI breaker, a dishwasher brand new would occasionally trip a GFCI, they tried different settings. The appliance store claimed it was the GFCI, however It also tripped a GFPE breaker.
In all those cases it was fairly easy pin the blame on the product and the customer was able to return the faulty items as it could be explained they tripped a 30 mA GFPE breaker, I used to try to measure leakage current but found the GFPE breakers are a controlled and easily reproduced test case as no working product should trip one.
 
tortuga said:
it was fairly easy pin the blame on the product and the customer was able to return the faulty items as it could be explained they tripped a 30 mA GFPE breaker, I used to try to measure leakage current but found the GFPE breakers are a controlled and easily reproduced test case as no working product should trip one.
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What if OEM proves appliance passed UL testing, and refuses return?

What if retailers use non-refundable contracts with appliance sales?

What if GFCI trips after appliances warranty expires?
 
ramsy said:
What if OEM proves appliance passed UL testing, and refuses return?
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The dishwasher was I think a Bosch and they kept wanting the customer to have me to try different brand GFCI's, when I politely explained a GFPE has 6X the trip threshold of a GFCI they accepted the return immediately.
ramsy said:
What if retailers use non-refundable contracts with appliance sales?

What if GFCI trips after appliances warranty expires?
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In the case of the home theater gear it was way out of warranty (a old surround Amp i believe) the customer sent it to a electronics repair person who instantly knew what it was, the filter cap in question was something called a 'RIFA' cap, there is one from Live - frame ground that often leaks current and actual juice. They said if it had gone unnoticed the cap could have caught fire and or the juice would have corroded the logic board beyond repair.
 
tortuga said:
When I install new AFCI's and they trip it can become a time black hole. For me it's a quick sanity check of the system, saves on warranty diagnostic labor and gives the customer something concrete they can go back to the product manufacturer with.
three recent examples include;
  • Customer with a power strip with some AV home theater gear was randomly tripping a AFCI swapped in a GFPE tripped that within a day they were able to get the component repaired (a filter cap).
  • Customer had provided some lights after they were installed AFCI tripped occasionaly, 15A GFPE tripped immediately, turns out a neutral was making contact with some metal parts in the fixture. (not sure why the AFCI only occasionaly tripped was easy to spot with GFPE)
  • Another one was a GFCI breaker, a dishwasher brand new would occasionally trip a GFCI, they tried different settings. The appliance store claimed it was the GFCI, however It also tripped a GFPE breaker.
In all those cases it was fairly easy pin the blame on the product and the customer was able to return the faulty items as it could be explained they tripped a 30 mA GFPE breaker, I used to try to measure leakage current but found the GFPE breakers are a controlled and easily reproduced test case as no working product should trip one.
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Your examples all included GFCI, or some form of ground fault protection. Some of the newer AFCI don't have any type of ground fault protection in them. So installing a GFPE breaker wouldn't help to see why these AFCI are tripping.
 
Wife has a Peleton treadmill that was popping GFCI outlets in our old house. Tried several brands. This doesn't seem to be happening in the new house.

I have one of those crank up 20' light towers that I bought at a salvage auction. Generator engine was blown. I ripped out the generator and the HPS lights. Replaced the lights with Hyperlight LED floods. Anytime any little lightening strike is in the area, it pops the GFCI it's connected too. I've tried several different brands of outlets. Even happens when the lights aren't on. Can't figure it out.

I also have some Hyperlight canopy lights that pop the GFCI breaker about 50% of the time I turn them on.

I have Hyperlight high bay lights in my workshop and those have never caused me a problem.
 
Little Bill said:
Your examples all included GFCI, or some form of ground fault protection.
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Not really perhaps i was not clear; the lights and the stereo were on new AFCI breakers one was a new addition + new lights, the other new house + old stereo rack.
Both cases the AFCI would randomly trip once in a while.
I swapped in a GFPE to see if whatever tripped the AFCI also tripped a GFPE and it did both times.
 
tortuga said:
Not really perhaps i was not clear; the lights and the stereo were on new AFCI breakers one was a new addition + new lights, the other new house + old stereo rack.
Both cases the AFCI would randomly trip once in a while.
I swapped in a GFPE to see if whatever tripped the AFCI also tripped a GFPE and it did both times.
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I don't think you are understanding me. When AFCI came out, they had a form of ground fault protection in them, probably around 30mA. That's why staples through wires, neutral to ground faults, etc. would trip them. Now some (maybe most) mfg have taken that out of the AFCI. That's why we can now use two SP AFCI with handle ties for a MWBC.
If the breakers you had tripped were AFCI only, then no ground fault would trip them. You said you put in a GFPE breaker and it tripped. That would mean a ground fault. I'm saying, if the problem was a ground fault, and the AFCI didn't have that form of protection in it, then the AFCI would not trip.
Your tests prove nothing that an AFCI without GFPE would trip for.
Now if these were DF breakers that were tripping, your test would show it was the GFCI portion that tripped.

Next time you have an AFCI trip, put a different AFCI in that has no GFPE and then see if it trips. GE is one brand that does not have it in them.
 
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