I have to ask

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bikeindy

bikeindy

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis IN
What do you think of a tester called sure test that checks voltage drop by plugging into a receptacle? Looking at a home inspection report and that showes up in a photo and states :

[C] [R] 5650.12: Receptacle outlet has unacceptable voltage droploose
connection.-in living room
 
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There are several incarnations of the SureTest, and one will put a 15 amp load on the circuit to measure voltage drop. Since there is no specific requirement for voltage drop limits, this is really a non-issue, but home inspectors love their gadgets. This could mean a loose connection, but not necessarily. The use of the SureTest tool is controversial, even among home inspectors.

I have a big problem with this particular home inspector's report, since he gives the "cause" of the voltage drop in his report, which may be completely untrue. This is not a proper way to report this matter, no matter what school of home inspecting you come from.

(Some of the SureTest tools even check for "bootleg grounds" [aka neutral to hot jumpers at teh receptacle], and they can give false reports if the receptacle is sufficiently close to the panel. Keep your eyes peeled for these reports, and if you find that there aren't any bootleg grounds when some have been reported, please give the home inspector a piece of your mind... that is unless he puts "suspected" bootleg ground in the report)
 
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I have one, and it is a good instrument. However the wording you just gave is meaningless. There may be a problem, there may not.
 
I once had an electrical inspector show up on a large job (3-story motel) to play with his new toy.... a suretest voltage drop tester.

He walked from room to room, checking each outlet. "That one's bad.... this one's bad... this one is marginal, I'll let it go..... this one's bad..... this one's good....."

He ended up testing one outlet twice... one reading was good, the other bad.

He told me I would have to redo half the floor and put in 10 instead of 12. I asked for a Code reference. He said he didn't need one. I then asked him if he could even do a voltage drop calculation. He couldn't.

End of story.
 
bikeindy said:
What do you think of a tester called sure test that checks voltage drop by plugging into a receptacle? Looking at a home inspection report and that showes up in a photo and states :

[C] [R] 5650.12: Receptacle outlet has unacceptable voltage droploose
connection.-in living room
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It's a good little tool once you learn to use it. I probably would not have bought one but I to had trouble with a home inspector. This inspector owned one and it was giving him incorrect information ( reading were high, I don't think he really knew how to use it ). He couldn't understand my calculations that showed what the voltage drop on a long run of #14 would actually be.

With a new tester that would match my calculations I was able to convince him that the very last of the receptacles on a long run will show a higher than expected voltage drop. He went to one of those inspection schools where they taught him that a reading of over 10% VD was dangerous. I had to teach him that while it may be a poor design it's not illegal, He didn't even want to listen to the head electrical inspector for the county ( Biggest AH I have ever had to deal with ).

You can use the Sure Test to find loose connections you just need to know what to look for. I find boot-leg grounds all the time with mine. It's also good for testing a circuit where you are having trouble with an Arc Fault or GFCI breaker.
 
I have been using this for about 3 years and think its a great tool. Like the others said, you do have to know what the readings mean. A large voltage drop may be sign of a loose connection or just a long run of cable. The only problem I have had with them is that they sometimes inexplicably do not work. After a few minutes it usually comes back on. Has anyone else had this problem? I have had mine replaced 3 times and sent to the factory for testing the last time...haven't heard back from them yet.
 
I have the 165 & have sent it back for blacking out. It also reads "no ground" sometimes because of an issue with the power cord. Per instructions it reads a false ground when you're within 10-15' of the service. I don't use the voltage drop test because I couldn't look a client in the eye and say "We need to rewire this 14 ga. circuit to 12 ga. because the voltage drop is too high." I like the reading of GFCI response time.

Dave
 
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Can any of you who own this tool give a SHORT description of what it looks like, how you connect it, how it detects any particular condition within the circuit (e.g., does it include a voltmeter or an ammeter or an ohmmeter?), and how it is able to detect a "bootleg ground" connection? :confused:
 
man now I am feeling stupid..get to work take out my tester and it is an ideal suretest #61-155. I like mine..But I still think we are doing our industry an in Justice by allowing the unqualified to do electrical inspections..
 
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charlie b said:
Can any of you who own this tool give a SHORT description of what it looks like, how you connect it, how it detects any particular condition within the circuit (e.g., does it include a voltmeter or an ammeter or an ohmmeter?), and how it is able to detect a "bootleg ground" connection? :confused:
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I don't own one but I've seriously looked at purchasing the unit. Look at this link for the picture and quick overview. Here is a link to the manual with more details. It has a three prong plug on the end of it to stick into an outlet.

It includes a voltmeter with digital readout and three different load resistors to apply a nominal 12 A, 15 A, or 20 A load to the circuit. I assume these are low wattage resistors that are switched into the circuit, a voltage reading taken, then switched out very quickly. The unit then displays voltage drop percentage in an unloaded vs. loaded state. This is an assumption, but supported by this line from the manual:
Instruction Manual said:
To maintain stated accuracies during repeated use, allow 20 seconds between insertions to adequately dissipate any heat buildup during the load testing.
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The bootleg grounds are "detected" by an ohmmeter:
Instruction Manual said:
False Ground Indication
NEC article 250-23(a) only allows for a neutral-to-ground bond to occur at the main panel. The SureTest suggests any improper neutral-to-ground bonds within 15-20 feet upstream (towards the panel) of the tester. If this bond improperly occurs in the branch circuit through a bootleg ground via a jumper wire at the outlet device or inadvertent contact of the ground wire to the neutral connection, the SureTest indicates a false ground condition. Note that if the SureTest is within 15-20 feet of the main panel, the unit will indicate a false ground condition on a properly wired circuit due to its close proximity to the proper ground-neutral bond in the main panel.
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It looks like it just takes a resistance reading from neutral to ground and if it's less than some preset value it calls it a bootleg ground. At least the manual gives some disclaimers, not that a home inspector would read them or pay attention. I'm not going to copy and paste any more, but the manual is interesting reading. I would like to hear comments from those more experienced than myself on whether their diagnostic methods are worth anything.
 
Good links for information jdsmith. It plugs in and is very simple to use. It first displays a 3 light polarity screen, then you push down and side arrows for more detailed information. For GFCI & AFCI testing, you push those test buttons. I don't use this for troubleshooting much. While it'll show reverse polarity like any $5 tester, it won't show a loss of neutral because the tester needs 120V to function.

Dave
 
cschmid said:
I still think we are doing our industry an in Justice by allowing the unqualified to do elecrical inspections..
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This is true but we don't have any choice in the matter. Home inspectors don't really do electrical inspections. They are hired to give a professional opinion on the condition of a property based on a certain predetermined test criteria ( a list of things they will test and how they will be tested ).
There is no offical recognition of a home inspection ( in this area).

If a home does require an electricl inspection in this area then first a licensed electricain must pull a permit and inspect the sysem and repair all faults and then the county/city electrical inspector then gives final approval before power is restored. An example of a house that would require an actual electrial inspection is one where there was a fire or one where the power was off for over 6 months ( set empty). If the home stays occupied with power on there is normally no requirement for an actual electrical inspection. The power company may require one if the owner/tenant is caught sealing power ( it's normally rental property where this happens but they make the owner jump through a few hoops before power is restored ). ;)
 
growler said:
This is true but we don't have any choice in the matter. Home inspectors don't really do electrical inspections. They are hired to give a professional opinion on the condition of a property based on a certain predetermined test criteria ( a list of things they will test and how they will be tested ).
There is no official recognition of a home inspection ( in this area).
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You are so correct on part of this statement.

Yet if you do any type of electrical work this includes electrical assessments you need a license..

How can they give a professional opinion they are not professionals..they are not licensed as professionals..

And this is my point there is no official recognition of a Home Inspector..Yet they break the law and create reports concerning areas that are required to be licensed in..that means they are breaking the law..I am only going by the laws instituted by our legislation..The only way this is going to be corrected is if our industry and other professional industries stand up for our/their rights..I can legally come out and assess your electrical system and the assessment will be done using the knowledge of electricity and the code..That is a professional assessment..not some quack who is giving out unqualified assessments..We are professionals they are not......so why should they be allowed to break the law doing it...if you break the law it will cost you (here in MN) 5 grand and probation, maybe a suspension or even revocation of your license..they break the law and nothing happens..they even advertise to get your business so they can break the law..the thing that irritates me the most is the bad assessments..I am working here to have that changed..I am tired of them making electricians and our profession look like we are taking advantage of our customers and doing shabby work..I am a professional our business has been around for 90 years and we do professional work..The state is clear on receiving cash for electrical work and electrical assessments are part of the scope of electrical work..I also believe it would be easy work giving easements and I know the one given by professionals is accurate..I can even give the hazard level involved can the Home Inspector do that..and they get 300 or better dollars for a unqualified assessment wonder how much they will pay for qualified assessment..If it is for the benefit of Home owner and potential buyers why not contract a professional..You give assessments now for free they are called bids..think about it..no one is going to lobby for our rights except us..I am doing my part here..
 
cschmid said:
I can legally come out and assess your electrical system and the assessment will be done using the knowledge of electricity and the code..That is a professional assessment..not some quack who is giving out unqualified assessments..We are professionals they are not......
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People are given the choice to either see a real Doctor or a Chiropractor and many choose to go with the Chiropractor ( some even choose faith healing ). Sooner or later they end up at the Doctor's office or the morgue ( then a real Doctor gets to figure out what they died from).

Just think of Home Inspectors as the Chiropractors of the Real Estate Industry. If the customer has faith the treatment works. ;)

If the inspection fails to work they can always try an Exorcism.:grin:
 
growler said:
People are given the choice to either see a real Doctor or a Chiropractor and many choose to go with the Chiropractor ( some even choose faith healing ). Sooner or later they end up at the Doctor's office or the morgue ( then a real Doctor gets to figure out what they died from).

Just think of Home Inspectors as the Chiropractors of the Real Estate Industry. If the customer has faith the treatment works. ;)

If the inspection fails to work they can always try an Exorcism.:grin:
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that was worth a good laugh..I guess I am moving toward some sort of regulations and even state regulated..If they want to play let them pay and earn the right so they actually know and are licensed and have to be boned and insured..I want a level playing field..because when a customer calls with this stupid report in their hand and want answers, they expect them for free and wonder why we want paid when they already paid to have the quack give them a bad report..Then we go and test it our selves and have to explain it in detail to ensure our customers that they are good to go..Now it is a loosing proposition for us..I want the first call so the facts can be facts not maybe it could be this or this..the HI gives them a whole lot of BS and we are left to clean up mess..Let us do the electrical assessment and get accurate info the first time..HO saves cash and we can most of the time (90%) get the repair work as well..HI makes our job harder..
 
SureTest

SureTest

I have the SureTest 61-165 and really like it. I have had quite a few people ask for their opinion on the existing wiring, or at a home they were considering buying. Well, after scoping out the SE, and scoping out the labeling and routing, you can run right upstairs or where ever and pull out the SureTest. I'm sure you have read the manual by now, so I don't have to list all of the pro's. I had brought this tester up before and got knocked down about it. Well, to each their own. Mine has paid for itself.
It is what it is, it's not a DMM, or something for troubleshooting. It's simply a diagnostics tool for those who know how to use it properly and what it is really displaying.
 
I was just wondering. wanted to know something about this before I went over there. Anyway I tend to like most Home inspectors If you are hooked up with a number of good realtors you can get a lot of work from these guys writing up a whole lot of nothing and then the buyers want it fixed.
 
bikeindy said:
I was just wondering. wanted to know something about this before I went over there. Anyway I tend to like most Home inspectors If you are hooked up with a number of good realtors you can get a lot of work from these guys writing up a whole lot of nothing and then the buyers want it fixed.
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Sell yourself for electrical assessments why give the money to a HI you are the pro..
 
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