I might have lost this one

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memyselfandI

memyselfandI

Senior Member
Location
Hampton Roads, Virginia
Can someone explain the logic in designing a breaker panel that is made for outdoors? I mean I know that they are legal and rated for that purpose, and most of you say that there is nothing wrong with them, but here is my problem. Someone very close to you is doing something that causes the breaker to trip. It's dark, raining cats and dogs, lightning flashing, just a bad night for breakers to be tripping. This person goes outside, without shoes on (yes there are people who do this), slop through the water to the panel, open the rusted cover, stick their hand into the panel...which by the way has a few blanks missing, they always do, and attempt to reset the breaker. Now what do some breakers do if there is still a short, they kind of arc a little bit when you try to reset them huh? I may have lost a job today because the GC suggested to the owner that he move the panel to the outside because the GC didn't like it in the middle of the wall. I mentioned that there were other options such as to sub feed the panel to a different and more pleasing location inside the house. But unfortunately this person wants to listen to the GC, who by the way is not a certified and licensed electrician. So I told him that seeing how the GC knows more about electrical work than I do, let him do the electrical work. I won't put one of those things in my house, so why would I want to put it in someone elses house. They leak, their ugly, when they rust they look even worse. They are a P.I.T.A. Any thoughts on what an idiot I am or are there people who can hear what I am saying? Be easy now people.
 
I hear what you're saying....but...the customer is always right (unless it violates code)...we can do it any dumb way you like, then you can pay us to do it again :)
 
The equipment isn't the problem, it's the user and owner of the equipment that is. The maintenance and upkeep of electrical equipment is the responsibility of the owner of the equipment. The NEC should not contain provisions that are in design in nature or consider what may happen in the future due to poor upkeep, poor weather, or any other less than perfect circumstance.
 
Dude!

Okay, relax, remember to breathe.

An outdoor panel may not be my first option. Or even my second. However, there are circumstances where they are the last resort. For example; Antiquated panel is in a bedroom closet and a upgrade is in order.

But you need to sell it! Tell the customer that they are an affordable option, perfectly safe, and UL approved. Tell them you install 4-5 of them a month. Tell them that you see no problem. Then, if you get the job, professionally install a quality load center and put your phone number sticker on it and give them a fridge magnet. (So, when it trips, they call YOU!) And, if it should rust out in 25 - 30 years, then deal with it then.
 
I see your logic on not wanting to install an outdoor panel. I would explain it to the customer that way. Then you can always fall back on the old " it's gonna cost you more ". That normally puts a stop to that. If that fails then install the panel and forget about it. ( you tried your best ).
 
Filler plates missing is a problem if the electrician left it that way....The customer standing in water is the same with a outdoor receptacle or outdoor fixture bulb change..if they didnt learn about water and electricity in the 3rd grade, there's probably no hope....as long as it's code compliant, you're ok.
 
Well you asked so yes your an idiot.
Why? Because it is not illegal & its UL listed & approved to install an outdoor breaker panel outdoors.
I can onestly say I have never heard of any one getting hurt reseting a triped or dead shorted breaker even in the rain. But I have only been in the trades for 26 years.

Maybe you'll learn from this experience & this forum. Its always OK to expres your opinion once then shut up.
Next time remember the three "C"s

Close your mouth
Close the Sale
Close the door

I hope you find another job soon.
 
well, out here in So. Cal. we have been installing NEMA 3R panelboards by the millions for decades. A typical SFR has a 100 or 200amp "all in one" which is a meterbase-main cb-panelboard combination in one cabinet mounted either on the surface or semiflush on the building exterior. We have seen no more problems with these than we have with indoor installations. NEMA 3R equipment is designed and listed for exterior use in wet locations. As far as the barefooted person trying to reset a C/B out in the rain senario......I guess there are those who do not need to remain in the human genepool.

Bob on the left coast.
 
Actually, I agree with the OP. I have vetoed things on grounds of safety, even when allowed by code.

There's no way the code can cover every possible situation, and inevitably some things will slip through the cracks, or some things might be approved despite strong reservations from other members of a CMP. Consider NM cable, for example. I use it for probably 80-90% of the work I do, but the powers that be in Chicago wouldn't let me use it at all if I worked there.

Sure, you have to follow whatever rules your AHJ has adopted, but if you personally don't think a proposed installation is a good idea, you have every right to follow your conscience and refuse to do it.

No sense looking for extra reasons to lose sleep.
 
OK
Explain to me a scenario where, provided an exterior surface mounted breaker panel, properly installed, grounded and bonded, no missing blanks, can hurt a bafefoot person reseting an overloaded tripped breaker, in the rain.
I can't picture any scenario of any danger.
Let your imagination run wild.
 
The one I hear from women the most is, "But can't somebody come along and turn off the power?" I reply, "You have watching to many movies."

One guy said. "But can't somebody steal electricity?" I stared at him and said, "Well, yes, but don't you think they would use your outside GFCI's instead?"

Put a lock on it!
 
Personally I think these panels have a place and it is not on a residence. But that is just me. I won't install a panel in the garage if there is a basement I just think the panel belongs with the rest of the mechanicals.
 
Well I appreciate everyones honesty in replying to this post.I myself have been an electrician for 25 years and one of the things that I have learned is that when I am hired to do a job and a customer asks my opinion, I don't close my mouth, close the sale, close the door. The all mighty dollar and making the sale is important, but so is the safety of my customers. They hire me for my knowledge of the trade and to install an electrical system that is safe and I believe it is my obligation to express concerns about certain applications that I feel are unsafe or not in the best interest of the customer. I tell them what they need to know not what they want to hear and if it means that I don't get the job then so be it. At least I know that there are people out there that can pick up the scraps that someone leaves behind. Except this job. I got the job and secured more money to do the change order AND received another contract from the same person to wire another house right next to that one. So I dodged a bullet on that one, and yes I am an idiot. But I think when the job is over I'll write myself a hefty little bonus check to make myself feel better.
 
Explain to me a scenario where, provided an exterior surface mounted breaker panel, properly installed, grounded and bonded, no missing blanks, can hurt a bafefoot person reseting an overloaded tripped breaker, in the rain.
Click to expand...
Any time that the service neutral is open or has a high resistance path, or any time that there is an elevated voltage on the utility primary neutral.
Don
 
memyselfandI said:
I got the job and secured more money to do the change order ...
Click to expand...
Like I said...

celtic said:
...we can do it any dumb way you like, then you can pay us to do it again :)
Click to expand...

They got off "easy"...as the "re-do crew" won't be making an apprearance...they saved a few bucks :) ..you closed the deal(and then some)...everyone's happy
cheers.gif
 
Don,

Good job, yes, and those conditions, are often found, outdoor loadcenters, can become a hazzard.

Thank you!
 
satcom said:
Don,

Good job, yes, and those conditions, are often found, outdoor loadcenters, can become a hazzard.

Thank you!
Click to expand...

Satcom?
Can you please elaborate on the hazard an outdoor load center can become?
Please realize, as I do, down south we don't have basements or snow and many of us have detached garages.
Also the POCO now requires new installations of the meter accesible without entering the back yard.
But notwithstanding the location I want to here your reason for calling an outdoor loadcenter a "HAZARD"
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Any time that the service neutral is open or has a high resistance path, or any time that there is an elevated voltage on the utility primary neutral.
Don
Click to expand...

OK I'll give you this, but on the same hand why is this possible scenario any safer inside?

Many times your above mentioned neutral condition exist, I have had customers report voltage shocks in the shower from the CW faucet.
So with your condition I still feel it makes no safety difference, inside or outside.
 
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