Ice as a conductor?

[Lithium1994]

Stumped my instructor with this one. Would ice be a conductor of electricity or would it be a insulater. Not really any thing I can think of to figure it out, besides the salinity of the frozen water. Any comments from you guys would be appreciated. Thanks.
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[peter]

Just to get things started, my impression is that ice is pure water and pure -- distilled -- water is not a very good conductor. Toscanni is better. Somehow any salt [which causes sea water to be conductive] is forced out of the ice berg when the water freezes.
~Peter

 

[pierre]

I agree, that ice would most likely be a good insulator, not a good conductor.

 

[Lithium1994]

I realize distilled water is not a good conductor, but does water automatically distill when frozen? Just as a stupid example, if i was to stand on a solid sheet of ice, and touch a live conductor, would i be insulated or would i be grounded?

 

[George Stolz]

I believe I was reading a Popular Mechanics magazine, which said that the reason ice skaters have so little friction is because ice (in general) has several layers, and the upper layers are in a semi-liquid state, down to negative umpty-thousand degrees.

So I believe, in your example, the ice wouldn't be a good insulator.

 

[jmd445]

If the ice is made from distilled water it will not be an insulator, but yet a very poor conductor.

Take for example this water based fire extinguisher that is rated for electrical fires.

It uses a mist of de-ionized water.

http://www.cofessco.com/watermistextinguisher.htm

Jim

 

[bphgravity]

What about dry ice?

 

[jmd445]

Dry ice is carbon dioxide, it sublimates from a solid to gas. It will also act as an insulator.

 

[bthielen]

Here's my theory. Ice crystals form within the liquid water layer and then being less dense than the liquid float to the surace. As these frozen particles accumulate they form the ice sheet we are familiar with. Since it is the water molecules themselves, which are only H-2-O and not other elements, that are changing to solid form, it would stand to reason that ice is in a distilled form. However, it is not uncommon for other inert particals to get trapped within the accumulated ice particles and we can see these on a frozen lake. But all-in-all my "guess" is that ice itself is in a distilled form.

Bob

 

[charlie b]

When water freezes, one would think that the solid crystalline form of H2O that results will be pure H2O. However, that pure form can only result if the freezing process took place in ideal conditions. The "source of coldness" would have to surround the liquid water and be perfectly constant in its temperature. The liquid would have to be perfectly still for the duration of the freezing time. The freezing would have to take place slowly, meaning that the temperature imposed on the liquid would have to be just slightly below the freezing point.

None of this takes place in real life. So real life ice is not going to be pure H2O. Therefore, it will not be a perfect insulator. It will have finite resistance, and it will conduct electricity. How much resistance? Depends on a great many things. But I will say that I would not count on ice as a protection against shock.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Take for example this water based fire extinguisher that is rated for electrical fires.

That really has a lot more to do with the separation of the drops of water than the conductivity of the water. Fog nozzles with normal water can be used to fight electrical fires up to about 150,000 volts. The nozzle is designed for a very fine droplets and you must be 30+ feet away from the energized equipment.
Don

 

[bthielen]

What I was attempting to get at, although poorly, was that the ice itself is pure H2O however, through the freezing process other inert particles have been trapped within. If a particle of calcium for example exists in the liguid water and the water freezes around it, has the calcium therefore been converted into ice? It is still calcium but it is also trapped within the ice formation. Just as the non H2O components found in liquid water are what increases the water's conductivity, so too do they affect ice. I would also suspect that the surface of the ice being exposed to the elements could also therefore be exposed to particles found therin. Such as air-borne dust. These particles would increase the conductivity of the surface of the ice.


I don't think I could trust ice to insulate me.

Bob

 

[lazorko]

From a purely theoretical angle, electrical conduction in water is by ionic charge carriers from dissolved salts or impurities. It is a different conductive mode than that of metal solids in which electrons are charge carriers. In water's solid phase I don't imagine that there is a great deal of ionic motility because any charge carrier that might become locked into the crystalline lattice would become immobile. Therefore little, if any, current could flow through the ice. The liquid layer that forms on top of ice in response to pressure (as from an ice skate blade) would presumably be localized and may or may not create a conduction path. Although, someone could just test ice for conductivity.

 

[muskiedog]

From my understanding it would carry a charge due to impuritis,(metals) suspended in the water or ice. That is what I was taught in science class.

 

[scott thompson]

One major thing to consider is the Tempature of the Water, when it actually "Cracked" into Ice.

If the Mol Cracked at 34? F, 33? F, or exactly 32? F (0? C), then there is a significant amount of "Impurity" (i.e. calcium, salts, dust particles, + other metals/ elements).

If the Water sample Cracked at like 28? F or 29? F, then there will be a lower level of "Impurity" in the Water.

Since Water will dissolve / scrape anything - and it entraps the bound element(s) very well, it is nearly impossible to find "Pure Water" in uncontrolled enviroments.

I believe if actual "Pure Water" (Ph = 7.0) - which contained absolutely no Ions and was solely a given Mol comprising of H?O Molecules, this would be the one and only "Perfect Insulator" for an Electric Current flowing in / through / via solid materials (not sure what effects it would pose against Coupled Fields???).

Interestingly, when Water changes state from its Liquid state to solid state, it looses mass / weight, instead of gaining it - like all other Atomic or Molecular materials do.
The solid form of Water weighs less than the Liquid form, whereas the Solid form of CO? weighs more than the Liquid form.

When the Liquid Water "Cracks Over" to solid form, it looses weight by releasing some mass in a Kinetic Energy fashion.
In Lab Experiments, combined sectors of Water cracking into ice have generated up to 500 Volts DC.
Such experiments prompted a "Newer View Of How Lightning Is Generated"

Lastly, if you see a Snowflake, you are seeing the resulting effect when a Water Droplet encountered a speck of dust, in an atmosphere layer with a Tempature of at least 32? F. Without the dust particle, the Snowflake will not form because the Water will not crystallize.

Scott35

 

[eprice]

Interestingly, when Water changes state from its Liquid state to solid state, it looses mass / weight, instead of gaining it - like all other Atomic or Molecular materials do.

Just one minor correction. It doesn't loose mass/weight (that only happens in nuclear reactions where mass is converted to energy), rather, it becomes less dense. It weighs the same but takes up more volume. That's why water freezing can break pipes. It seems to loose weight, because a cubic foot of ice, for example, weights less than a cubic foot of water. But the mass/weight is actually conserved becasue the cubic foot of water becomes more than a cubic foot of ice.