identifacation
- Thread starter jesues
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: identifacation
Conductor code requirements were removed about 1975. The CMP has rejected all proposals for conductor color code requirements, as they want you to test and know what the voltage is, and not assume a brown is 277V. The 2002 NEC does require you to post the colors used if two or more nominal voltage systems are used in a facility, see 210.4 (D)
"(D) Identification of Ungrounded Conductors. Where more than one nominal voltage system exists in a building, each ungrounded conductor of a multiwire branch circuit, where accessible, shall be identified by phase and system. This means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved means and shall be permanently posted at each branch-circuit panelboard."
A proposal has been made for the 2005 NEC to require some type of identification for all branch ciruits. If you are in favor of this type of color identifcation, you should make a comment on the proposal to the NFPA.
Keep in mind Brown Orange Yellow for 480/277 is fine, as long as you can control the installation by strict specifications and inspection.
Conductor code requirements were removed about 1975. The CMP has rejected all proposals for conductor color code requirements, as they want you to test and know what the voltage is, and not assume a brown is 277V. The 2002 NEC does require you to post the colors used if two or more nominal voltage systems are used in a facility, see 210.4 (D)
"(D) Identification of Ungrounded Conductors. Where more than one nominal voltage system exists in a building, each ungrounded conductor of a multiwire branch circuit, where accessible, shall be identified by phase and system. This means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved means and shall be permanently posted at each branch-circuit panelboard."
A proposal has been made for the 2005 NEC to require some type of identification for all branch ciruits. If you are in favor of this type of color identifcation, you should make a comment on the proposal to the NFPA.
Keep in mind Brown Orange Yellow for 480/277 is fine, as long as you can control the installation by strict specifications and inspection.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: identifacation
Veering slightly off-topic, so don't go off on my tangent, but I am appreciating that Romex comes in different jacketing colors to indictate the gauge of the wire (#14, #12, #10). If these colors are standard it would help an inspector on a rough-out to make sure that say no #14 got slipped into a #12 20-amp circuit. Now, back to voltage color coding. Tagging the stinger with orange is a good thing.
Veering slightly off-topic, so don't go off on my tangent, but I am appreciating that Romex comes in different jacketing colors to indictate the gauge of the wire (#14, #12, #10). If these colors are standard it would help an inspector on a rough-out to make sure that say no #14 got slipped into a #12 20-amp circuit. Now, back to voltage color coding. Tagging the stinger with orange is a good thing.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: identifacation
Greetings Wayne. Not only is "taping the stinger orange a good thing", it is a required thing. I also agree that the coloring of type NM cable is a good thing. I was very surprised to see a #14 cable in a 20 amp circuit the first time I saw it, and was even more surprised when the electrician told me it was O.K.!!!
Greetings Wayne. Not only is "taping the stinger orange a good thing", it is a required thing. I also agree that the coloring of type NM cable is a good thing. I was very surprised to see a #14 cable in a 20 amp circuit the first time I saw it, and was even more surprised when the electrician told me it was O.K.!!!
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: identifacation
AWWT: Yes marking a high leg delta conductor is required, if the grounded conductor is present.
the jacket colors for NM is an optional method, and is not specified or required by the code.
AWWT: Yes marking a high leg delta conductor is required, if the grounded conductor is present.
the jacket colors for NM is an optional method, and is not specified or required by the code.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: identifacation
Sorry, for a moment there I lapsed into my Martha Stewart persona. I just wanted to make it crystal clear that color coding may be optional, but stingers should be taped orange. I don't have a lot of 3-phase experience but that one stuck in my mental archives. It's a good thing. Dusting things off white and grey are still reserved for neutral are they not? Green & bare are reserved for grounding and bonding. My knowledge is dated, dusty, and rusty, but thanks to you kind folks it's coming back very quickly.
../Wayne C.
[ September 15, 2003, 03:51 AM: Message edited by: awwt ]
Sorry, for a moment there I lapsed into my Martha Stewart persona. I just wanted to make it crystal clear that color coding may be optional, but stingers should be taped orange. I don't have a lot of 3-phase experience but that one stuck in my mental archives. It's a good thing. Dusting things off white and grey are still reserved for neutral are they not? Green & bare are reserved for grounding and bonding. My knowledge is dated, dusty, and rusty, but thanks to you kind folks it's coming back very quickly.
../Wayne C.
[ September 15, 2003, 03:51 AM: Message edited by: awwt ]
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: identifacation
Grounding conductors,neutrals and high leg are all required to be marked.It seems most nm manufacturers as far as i have seen(we use alot of nm)are marking 14 white 12 yellow 10 orange.
But there are still backstocks of 12 in a white jacket out there.I would like to see it a requirement that the nm color code be in the nec and required.
Grounding conductors,neutrals and high leg are all required to be marked.It seems most nm manufacturers as far as i have seen(we use alot of nm)are marking 14 white 12 yellow 10 orange.
But there are still backstocks of 12 in a white jacket out there.I would like to see it a requirement that the nm color code be in the nec and required.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: identifacation
I hope that the color code for NM goes away. It looks terrible for exposed work. If the inspector can't tell the wire sizes without this color code, I'm not sure that he is qualified to inspect.
Don
I hope that the color code for NM goes away. It looks terrible for exposed work. If the inspector can't tell the wire sizes without this color code, I'm not sure that he is qualified to inspect.
Don
Re: identifacation
At first I didn't like it just because it made the inspectors job easier and it does look kinda crappy if exposed. But after using it I'm kinda coming around. When I start looking for wire in my truck (and especially short ends in my shop), I don't have to dig to identify it (I don't always wear my glasses). It also helps me check my rough-in before the drywall goes up.
steve
At first I didn't like it just because it made the inspectors job easier and it does look kinda crappy if exposed. But after using it I'm kinda coming around. When I start looking for wire in my truck (and especially short ends in my shop), I don't have to dig to identify it (I don't always wear my glasses). It also helps me check my rough-in before the drywall goes up.
steve
Re: identifacation
In regard to the high leg delta identification: It was drilled into us in the plants I worked in in?the 70's, 80's that the high leg was ALWAYS to be installed in the middle of the phases and tagged orange. Then along comes a reputable and experienced electrician saying that the high leg is to be on the right!? Is there a code requirement for this, trade practice, or just what-ever-you-feel-like?
Chris
In regard to the high leg delta identification: It was drilled into us in the plants I worked in in?the 70's, 80's that the high leg was ALWAYS to be installed in the middle of the phases and tagged orange. Then along comes a reputable and experienced electrician saying that the high leg is to be on the right!? Is there a code requirement for this, trade practice, or just what-ever-you-feel-like?
Chris
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: identifacation
Chris, the high phase is in the middle unless you are dealing with metering equipment. A self contained meter will have the high phase on the right. We have always required the high phase to be on the right or the bottom if the CTs are mounted vertical.
I assume some electric utilities have changed since a set of CTs could be in any configuration. Even on our pole lines, the MGN is on top and the high phase is on the bottom.
Chris, the high phase is in the middle unless you are dealing with metering equipment. A self contained meter will have the high phase on the right. We have always required the high phase to be on the right or the bottom if the CTs are mounted vertical.
I assume some electric utilities have changed since a set of CTs could be in any configuration. Even on our pole lines, the MGN is on top and the high phase is on the bottom.
Re: identifacation
It's not a matter of being able to tell the wire size without the color code. It's a matter of time available. If I'm inspecting a house wired in all white NM, I just don't have time to check every one of those runs of NM to make sure there's not a section of #14 on a 20 amp circuit. With color coding, on the other hand, I can see from across the room if there are white and yellow NM coming into the same box and I can focus on those cases to see if there is a code violation.
Don,
It's not a matter of being able to tell the wire size without the color code. It's a matter of time available. If I'm inspecting a house wired in all white NM, I just don't have time to check every one of those runs of NM to make sure there's not a section of #14 on a 20 amp circuit. With color coding, on the other hand, I can see from across the room if there are white and yellow NM coming into the same box and I can focus on those cases to see if there is a code violation.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: identifacation
Hello Chris. Take a look at article 110.15 and 408.3(E).
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: identifacation
Bob
Don, I am surprised you have seen this, I thought you where in a all pipe no NM area.
Bob
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: identifacation
Bob,
You have to get a little closer to Chicago than I am before the houses are conduit. Even where I'm at, NM is only permitted in residential occupancies of 1 to 4 units.
Don
Bob,
You have to get a little closer to Chicago than I am before the houses are conduit. Even where I'm at, NM is only permitted in residential occupancies of 1 to 4 units.
Don
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