I'll bet this was an electrical fire

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electricmanscott

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Occupation
Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
There are so many of these old buildings with antiquated wiring coupled with modern usage. A sure formula for disaster. I am amazed that this does not happen more frequently.

This building, built in 1897 as a hotel, contained 200 rooms divided into 50 apartments used as a rooming house.

People with very little have absolutley nothing now. Being demolished as we speak.

Sorry about the poor picture quality. Maybe it's time to get a real camera. :roll:

fire1.jpg



Poco guys with their sticks are standing right under this. Follow the top of the wall and you can see the bow. There is a huge crack above the center windows.
fire4.jpg


Seconds later as they back away from the building it comes down.
fire3.jpg


See the pole in realation to the building.
GRID2.jpg


Transformer well done. This was removed and some new poles added. Neighboring buildings had to be refed.
GRID3.jpg


Embers landed on church steeple next door. Ladder extended higher than I'd like to be.
fire2.jpg
 
The only thing I can say about this is that I have seen fire marshals and their underlings literally invent "the cause of the fire".

I can't even imagine how the cause might be known. Not that I wouldn't be interested in learning more about it.
 
electricmanscott said:
There are so many of these old buildings with antiquated wiring coupled with modern usage. A sure formula for disaster. I am amazed that this does not happen more frequently.
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I don't know if you're joking or not, but the fact that this doesn't happen more often is a testament to the durability and reliability of old wiring systems. Yes, they are antiquated and sometimes unsafe by modern standards, but the fact that there are a bazillion old buildings like this in New England and far beyond tells me that old premises wiring is not as dangerous as some make it out to be.

But, that said, it's the fact that the premises wiring is inadequate which leads people to use extension cords, cube taps and other unsafe means, which does often lead to fires. So inadequate premises wiring is the indirect cause of many "electrical" fires.
 
peter d said:
extension cords.
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A lot of people want those to be at fault too. At least we know that cigarettes kill many many people and those are OK. I am sincerely curious which one kills more? Cars, those are OK too.

Electricity just isn't that dangerous comparitively. Not to say we shouldn't pay attention to using it safely, because we should.
 
Tentants are probably lucky to be alive. I bet there is a landlord that doesnt sleep very well.....

I vote for more property management codes and less AFCI type changes....Real dangers face the public every day in these old structures

1897, bet it wasnt the only fire this structures seen in its life time......
 
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physis said:
The only thing I can say about this is that I have seen fire marshals and their underlings literally invent "the cause of the fire".

I can't even imagine how the cause might be known. Not that I wouldn't be interested in learning more about it.
Click to expand...

I don't understand why people are always ragging on fire marshals. I have had the priviledge of working with some of the finest fire marshals in the country in MD and VA - these guys are hard working, very astute, and extremely well trained. That combined with the fact that they are the ones dragging burnt corpses out of buildings tends to make me want to always cooperate with them, whether its an extra battery pack or some usually simple thing in the name of safety. I have (unfortunately) been involved in a couple of building fires, and it amazed me just how much knowledge these guys have and how they put it to use. In one case (my sister-in-law's very old 3 story hardware store), they actually found the cause, which was a screw that had been driven through a piece of wire and eventually led to a fire (in the first floor). I would never have imagined in my wildest dreams that they would have found the cause in a 3 story burnt out mess like that. Stop ragging on these guys, they put their lives on the line for no other reason than to help others who are in perilous and often immediate need.
 
Id say, the quality of fire marshalls are not a consistent thing.....Ive seen the opposite ......Some people care and others dont....
 
That building is probably owned by some slum lord that uses non licensed folk for work. I had a building owner ask me if I would sign off on the smokes in the buildings. I said sure whats the address? and he looked at me confused, and said oh you dont have to bother driving down there ill bring the paperwork to you. ......needless to say I repeated myself and looked him in the eyes "whats the address."
 
Mule said:
Tentants are probably lucky to be alive. I bet there is a landlord that doesnt sleep very well.....

I vote for more property management codes and less AFCI type changes....Real dangers face the public every day in these old structures

1897, bet it wasnt the only fire this structures seen in its life time......
Click to expand...


NYS has a Property Maintenance Code document. Electrical requirements are a small portion of that document.


I say that the old buildings in this country, including New England are ticking time bombs waiting to happen...
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
NYS has a Property Maintenance Code document. Electrical requirements are a small portion of that document.


I say that the old buildings in this country, including New England are ticking time bombs waiting to happen...
Click to expand...

In truth all over American are towns that sprung up in the late 1800's thru early 1900's. These structures are over a hundred years old and there are thousands and thousands of them. In alot of case the things that will burn it down doest last near as long as the structure itself. Thus my opinion about the need for stiffer property maintenace codes, but only in the event of rented structures. Its still American and if a owner wants to occupy a structure that he chooses to let fall apart...oh well. But if it endangers those whom occupy it or other folks adjacent property there needs to be more enforcement IMO....
 
Mule said:
In truth all over American are towns that sprung up in the late 1800's thru early 1900's. These structures are over a hundred years old and there are thousands and thousands of them. In alot of case the things that will burn it down doest last near as long as the structure itself. Thus my opinion about the need for stiffer property maintenace codes, but only in the event of rented structures. Its still American and if a owner wants to occupy a structure that he chooses to let fall apart...oh well. But if it endangers those whom occupy it or other folks adjacent property there needs to be more enforcement IMO....
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What about the safety of the emergency responders???
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
What about the safety of the emergency responders???
Click to expand...


Yes the five years I worked in inspections, there was one turn of the century downtown building that seemed to be politicaly bullet proof. Now years later, my son in law (my helper) is also a full time fireman. The FD toured this structure a while back on what they call a pre-fire tour. He said it was a time bomb. Bad wiring, no exits, no fire protection, lots of combustable construction elements. I just grinned and said things havent changed a bit......:rolleyes:
 
nakulak said:
I don't understand why people are always ragging on fire marshals. I have had the priviledge of working with some of the finest fire marshals in the country in MD and VA - these guys are hard working, very astute, and extremely well trained. That combined with the fact that they are the ones dragging burnt corpses out of buildings tends to make me want to always cooperate with them, whether its an extra battery pack or some usually simple thing in the name of safety. I have (unfortunately) been involved in a couple of building fires, and it amazed me just how much knowledge these guys have and how they put it to use. In one case (my sister-in-law's very old 3 story hardware store), they actually found the cause, which was a screw that had been driven through a piece of wire and eventually led to a fire (in the first floor). I would never have imagined in my wildest dreams that they would have found the cause in a 3 story burnt out mess like that. Stop ragging on these guys, they put their lives on the line for no other reason than to help others who are in perilous and often immediate need.
Click to expand...

I won't even try to say that all fire marshals are bad, because I doubt that's true. But I have been unfortunate enough to encounter some who beleive that they're some kind of corupt police cheif. If you haven't met one these people you couldn't even begin to guess.
 
electricmanscott said:
There are so many of these old buildings with antiquated wiring coupled with modern usage. A sure formula for disaster. I am amazed that this does not happen more frequently.

This building, built in 1897 as a hotel, contained 200 rooms divided into 50 apartments used as a rooming house.
Click to expand...
I have done some work in those types of buildings for the city here. Locally called SRO's (Single Room Occupancies) and like you mentioned - most of them here are former hotels (flea bags) that are poorly retrofitted into a use that far exceeds the electrical capacity of the building. Here - there have numerous fires and other life/safety issues, and although privately owned by for profit companies, have been taken over by decree from the city and managed by Non-profit over-site committees. (who called in a company I used to work for) I have evaluated most of them here for various up-grades and even had to do a lot of work on several. So I have seen some really poor workmanship, maintenance, and reliance on OCP to limit load that all coupled into major fire hazards. Including one that I swear was malicious intent to start an electrical fire initiated by it's owners - although I could not "prove" it....*


*At two places with the same owner I found spray bottles on top of the main service equipment - and in both panels heavily corroded neutrals with obvious spray and drip patterns on and around the neutral connections.
 
Does look like a church in Union Sq. Probably thinking St Josephs. Or the old church on Bow st that is now condos.

It is in Worcester.

As for the cause....There were complaints of fuses blowing repeatedly as of late. Local inspectors have been spending time there. Supposedly problems were addressed and inspectors were to return on Friday (day after fire) to reinspect.
 
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