Impact of phase loss on a three-phase motor

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Hypothetical situation based on experience:
A 3-phase motor is provided with a FVNR starter.
Thermal overloads (not solid state) are provided with the controller and are sized per code.
An upstream breaker is provided within the panel feeding the motor providing SC and GF protection, and is also sized per code.
A single phase was lost from the utility service and hours goes on indefinitely.
No phase-loss specific protection is provided in the building.
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Why is it that sometimes motors seem to take the brunt of the damage during these events?

Why is it that sometimes starters seem to take the brunt of the damage during these events?

Why isn't a properly sized thermal overload protecting the system?

Thanks as always.
 
My experience is mostly with eutectic alloy overloads. If a phase is lost, then the motor tries to start, the motor burns up almost 100% of the time. If a phase is lost while running, the motor overloads might trip before the motor is damaged, but it depends on the load. A lightly-loaded motor already running can run a long time after losing a phase.
I’ve never seen a NEMA-rated starter damaged by a single phasing event that I recall.
 
For as cheap as phase loss relays are, never understood why one is not part of every starter circuit.
 
… Why is it that sometimes motors seem to take the brunt of the damage during these events?

Lots of “Ifs” here…
First, it depends on IF the motor was running at the time of the event or not.
  1. IF it was not running, and IF the phase that was lost was not affecting the control power, and IF something called for the motor to run, receiving single phase will not allow the motor to rotate, so it stays in the locked rotor condition. But that’s without the full measure of locked rotor current, it’s only about 58% of LRC because it is single phase now. The OL trip curve will be based on full 3 phase LRC, so the trip time is essentially more than doubled (it’s a logarithmic curve). That is usually long enough to damage the windings.
  2. IF it WAS running when the phase was lost, then it depends on the LOAD on the motor at that moment. IF the motor is running at less than half its full load amps, it may not be damaged and will chug along as if nothing happened. The current will increase, and because of “negative sequence currents” in the dead phase, the negative torque that creates will effectively “fight” the normal torque, so the motor will run a LOT hotter than normal, which is what can damage the windings. But because you started out so low to begin with, the motor may be able to handle it. Any more than around half of the FLA and the effect can be damaging. See below about the OL relay for more.
Why is it that sometimes starters seem to take the brunt of the damage during these events?
Usually, that’s due to the lost phase being one of those that was supplying control power, PLUS there were other motors running across the line at that time, which, like a “rotary phase converter”, create a “phantom” voltage on the missing phase so that instead of the control power completely dropping out, it flutters around at a low voltage level that leads the coil to chatter, destroying the starter.

Why isn't a properly sized thermal overload protecting the system?
Again, it depends on the first issue; loading and the type of overload in play;
  1. If the motor was running at half or less than its rated load, it may be fine. If more than that, the heating effect (from the negative sequence currents) will cause disproportionate heating in the windings, but the two active phase currents will not increase as much as that heating effect, so the OL relay may not think anything is wrong.
  2. The sub variant to this is whether or not you are using a NEMA type OL relay, or an IEC bi-metal type. IEC bi-metal OL relays usually have what’s called a “differential trip mechanism” that deliberately skews the trip curve downward toward that 58% curve rather than the full one. So they might trip fast enough to protect it. Still not guaranteed though, it too depends on the motor load at the time of the event.

Bottom line, you can’t really expect a simple electro-mechanical OL relay to protect against phase loss because of all of the IFs involved. I switched to Solid State OLRs years ago when they became almost the same cost as good NEMA type OLs. SSOLs almost always include true Phase Loss protection based on current (not voltage because voltage base phase loss protection can be fooled). I gave never looked back.

As to “phase loss relays”, my issue with those is what I just said, most if them are only looking at voltage, not current, and can be fooled by the amount of regenerated voltage on the lost phase by already spinning motors. So those are good for DISALLOWING systems to start with a phase missing, but may allow an already running motor to continue running if the phase was lost after it started. I’ve seen some claim to have kicked this problem, I have not seen one that actually did it under all circumstances to where I would trust them over current based phase loss protection.
 
As to “phase loss relays”, my issue with those is what I just said, most if them are only looking at voltage, not current, and can be fooled by the amount of regenerated voltage on the lost phase by already spinning motors. So those are good for DISALLOWING systems to start with a phase missing, but may allow an already running motor to continue running if the phase was lost after it started. I’ve seen some claim to have kicked this problem, I have not seen one that actually did it under all circumstances to where I would trust them over current based phase loss protection.
Agreed with regard to the older octal plug in type, but do the newer ones that sense phase imbalance still have the issue? From the datasheet of one I was looking at a while ago for another application:
"PMRU-TL Series products protect against unbalanced voltages or single phasing regardless of any regenerative voltages"
 
They make the claim, I have seen it not work. I don’t remember if it was that specific one, but the issue for me is, they make those claims based on laboratory simulation conditions where they control everything. Real life is messier IMHO.

I may be wrong, they might be good, I’m just not willing to risk a lot of expensive motors and down time for my customers to find out. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
 
They make the claim, I have seen it not work. I don’t remember if it was that specific one, but the issue for me is, they make those claims based on laboratory simulation conditions where they control everything. Real life is messier IMHO.

I may be wrong, they might be good, I’m just not willing to risk a lot of expensive motors and down time for my customers to find out. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Thanks. I tend to rely too much on datasheets (from trusted suppliers).
 
Thanks. I tend to rely too much on datasheets (from trusted suppliers).
My first foray into this was in comparing the slight increased cost of SSOLs compared to the cost of buying, installing and wiring a phase monitor relay, including the primary fuses and holders, etc, and incorporating it into the whole control system somehow. I needed OL relays anyway, so it was less effort all around to just use SSOLs that have phase loss protection included. Since then nobody I have done this for has lost a motor on phase loss (usually blown fuses somewhere).
 
My experience with phase loss monitors were with irrigation systems. They worked. One monitor on the well with proper interlocking with the pivot = Best thing in the house until SSOLs came along.

I could not understand why the well guys did not install them. Duh, they sold motors.
 
Agreed with regard to the older octal plug in type, but do the newer ones that sense phase imbalance still have the issue? From the datasheet of one I was looking at a while ago for another application:
"PMRU-TL Series products protect against unbalanced voltages or single phasing regardless of any regenerative voltages"
One thing I learned is many of the voltage sensing relays do not sense the peak voltage, instead they look for zero crossing and then start a timer hoping to find roughly 80% voltage. A problem with this is when the voltage waveform contains harmonics, like those from VFDs, which mess with this measurement point.
 
One thing I learned is many of the voltage sensing relays do not sense the peak voltage, instead they look for zero crossing and then start a timer hoping to find roughly 80% voltage. A problem with this is when the voltage waveform contains harmonics, like those from VFDs, which mess with this measurement point.
The one I was looking at has true rms voltage measurement.
 
Lots of “Ifs” here…
First, it depends on IF the motor was running at the time of the event or not.
  1. IF it was not running, and IF the phase that was lost was not affecting the control power, and IF something called for the motor to run, receiving single phase will not allow the motor to rotate, so it stays in the locked rotor condition. But that’s without the full measure of locked rotor current, it’s only about 58% of LRC because it is single phase now. The OL trip curve will be based on full 3 phase LRC, so the trip time is essentially more than doubled (it’s a logarithmic curve). That is usually long enough to damage the windings.
  2. IF it WAS running when the phase was lost, then it depends on the LOAD on the motor at that moment. IF the motor is running at less than half its full load amps, it may not be damaged and will chug along as if nothing happened. The current will increase, and because of “negative sequence currents” in the dead phase, the negative torque that creates will effectively “fight” the normal torque, so the motor will run a LOT hotter than normal, which is what can damage the windings. But because you started out so low to begin with, the motor may be able to handle it. Any more than around half of the FLA and the effect can be damaging. See below about the OL relay for more.

Usually, that’s due to the lost phase being one of those that was supplying control power, PLUS there were other motors running across the line at that time, which, like a “rotary phase converter”, create a “phantom” voltage on the missing phase so that instead of the control power completely dropping out, it flutters around at a low voltage level that leads the coil to chatter, destroying the starter.


Again, it depends on the first issue; loading and the type of overload in play;
  1. If the motor was running at half or less than its rated load, it may be fine. If more than that, the heating effect (from the negative sequence currents) will cause disproportionate heating in the windings, but the two active phase currents will not increase as much as that heating effect, so the OL relay may not think anything is wrong.
  2. The sub variant to this is whether or not you are using a NEMA type OL relay, or an IEC bi-metal type. IEC bi-metal OL relays usually have what’s called a “differential trip mechanism” that deliberately skews the trip curve downward toward that 58% curve rather than the full one. So they might trip fast enough to protect it. Still not guaranteed though, it too depends on the motor load at the time of the event.

Bottom line, you can’t really expect a simple electro-mechanical OL relay to protect against phase loss because of all of the IFs involved. I switched to Solid State OLRs years ago when they became almost the same cost as good NEMA type OLs. SSOLs almost always include true Phase Loss protection based on current (not voltage because voltage base phase loss protection can be fooled). I gave never looked back.

As to “phase loss relays”, my issue with those is what I just said, most if them are only looking at voltage, not current, and can be fooled by the amount of regenerated voltage on the lost phase by already spinning motors. So those are good for DISALLOWING systems to start with a phase missing, but may allow an already running motor to continue running if the phase was lost after it started. I’ve seen some claim to have kicked this problem, I have not seen one that actually did it under all circumstances to where I would trust them over current based phase loss protection.

Thanks for the detailed response along with your post on Control Automation from Nov 2011 on this same topic.
It's still not exactly clear as to why starters and VFDs would be damaged. In a recent field visit for a non-related issue, a facilities manager was discussing how they had just installed phase protection at the service entrance switchboard due to a recent phase loss event that damaged every 3-phase starter (and i believe some VFDs) beyond repair.
 
Thanks for the detailed response along with your post on Control Automation from Nov 2011 on this same topic.
It's still not exactly clear as to why starters and VFDs would be damaged. In a recent field visit for a non-related issue, a facilities manager was discussing how they had just installed phase protection at the service entrance switchboard due to a recent phase loss event that damaged every 3-phase starter (and i believe some VFDs) beyond repair.
What’s not clear with regard to starters?

With VFDs, mmost that I’ve seen protect themselves against phase loss on the input. Many detect it by simply watching the DC bus ripple, which increases significantly if the drive is fed with single phase. Generally the drives will shut down unless, again, the load is very light at the time. So it’s hard to believe that a phase loss alone was responsible. It might have been one outcome in a chain of events, where there was something more deadly that happened before the phase loss.
 
Yaskawa dealer here:

All Yaskawa drives detect both voltage and current.

Single phasing with jump the amperage, fault will shut it down. Loss of voltage on any phase will be detected too, fault will shut it down as well. Lots of my customers are putting drives on motors as starters. You get all the benefits of this without having to use some PLC to send 0-10vdc data to it. The drive provides the 10vdc internally and you can just use a jumper into the input. Select the method of start-up. You are good to go.

Most applications are not needing speed control anyway. The drive is the best watch dog you can have.
 
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