Inadequate info from 2008NEC Changes Meeting

[dnem]

Do you guys have examples of less than effective 2008NEC continuing ed presentations of a code change ?

I have 4 off the top of my head from Article210. . I'll post more if/when I think of them.

1
210.4(D) + 210.4(D)X, OK so the continuing ed/changes instructor read the requirement but it would have been very helpful to the electrical contractor foreman or the electrical inspector to cover how to “pick up” on this.

Look into the panel and take note only of any homerun that have more than one neutral. . Do those homeruns have more hot conductors than neutrals ? . If yes, than look for application/compliance with 210.4(D) + X.

2
210.12(B), the instructor read thru the room list and just kept going. . I'm thinking in my mind, "Hold on a second ! . If you have a long list of what rooms are required to have AFCIs, then how about a short list of what's not required." . Such as:

the 3 categories of restricted load 20 amp circuits of 210.11(C)
1) 210.11(C)(1) small appliance in kitchen AND all other kitchen circuits [lighting, refridge etc] not AFCI required but the dining IS AFCI required
2) 210.11(C)(2) laundry not AFCI required
3) 210.11(C)(3) bathroom not AFCI required

and 3 of the 5 categories of areas not required to have plugs every 6 feet [areas not listed in 210.52(A)]. . Closets and hallways ARE AFCI required. . The 3 that are not required are:
1) 210.52(E) outdoor not AFCI required
2) 210.52(G) basements, unfinished section not AFCI required
3) 210.52(G) garage not AFCI required

3
210.12(B)X1 has the word “steel” in it. . Shouldn’t the continuing ed presenter mention that aluminum jacketed cable does not satisfy that exception ?

With MC AP taking off like a rocket, I’ll bet $1000 that we’ll see many residential/commercial electrical contractors pull AFCI plugs, metal boxes, and MC AP out of their truck for residential. . Am I wrong in concluding that all MC AP is aluminum jacket ? . I think this is going to be an issue on house roughs.

4
210.63 has a 25 foot limit. . The new section of 210.52(E)(3) has a “within the perimeter” spec. . A lot of spec houses with 2 outside plugs will now need 3 [depending on where the 25’ measurement falls].

David

 

[iwire]

David how do you fall asleep at night? :grin:

Don't sweat it, things will work out just like they do each code cycle. :smile:

 

[dnem]

David how do you fall asleep at night? :grin:

Don't sweat it, things will work out just like they do each code cycle. :smile:

Yes but things can be done the hard way or the easy way.

If the instructor delivers the info effectively, that's a whole lot less red tags I'll have to write in January and alot less phone calls where the contractor wants an explanation.

January of 2008 will be alot more peaceful if the code change instructors do a good job.

David

 

[George Stolz]

David, did you think about politely inviting the instructor out to dinner, and at some unassuming moment striking him over the head with a sap and dragging him into a root cellar?

Or instead of the sap, perhaps offering pointers/perspectives?

Granted, what I've done is on a way less formal, small scale, but input from the peanut gallery was very helpful to me in my apprentice class.

 

[dnem]

David, did you think about politely inviting the instructor out to dinner, and at some unassuming moment striking him over the head with a sap and dragging him into a root cellar?

Or instead of the sap, perhaps offering pointers/perspectives?

Granted, what I've done is on a way less formal, small scale, but input from the peanut gallery was very helpful to me in my apprentice class.

I like the "striking him over the head" idea. . I just don't want to get stuck with the dinner tab so I'll have to make my move early ..... before he orders his food.

We've had two 2008 change meetings,

The first one had 3 presentors and the format was "off to the races". . I've never seen so many slides jammed into 5 hours before. . It was over before I could think about what I saw. . It was days later when things would hit me as I drove around. . And there was nobody I could hit over the head, at that point.

The second meeting was by Stallcup. . He has an incredible memory. . His presentation lasted 8 hours and he referred to endless code rules by exact number without a single item being written down. . He gravitates toward industrial and heavy industrial applications and brought in references to 70E and 70B and other codes all by memory.

What he tended to rush thru was the residential and commercial application of changes. . I don't blame him for getting bored with the more basic parts of the code but he needed to tailor his presentation to his audience rather than what he finds most interesting. . The audience was filled with electricians that work on residential and commercial jobs everyday.

If you are interested in an industrial application of the code, Stallcup is "top shelf". . If you work mostly in residential and commercial, you should try somebody else.

David

 

[cadpoint]

Just a thought

Just a thought

Seems to me you wrote some good notes for those that will be teaching the code changes in the near future, and for those of us that follow an article as stated in an OP.

 

[gndrod]

Hard way...no way

Hard way...no way

Yes but things can be done the hard way or the easy way.

If the instructor delivers the info effectively, that's a whole lot less red tags I'll have to write in January and alot less phone calls where the contractor wants an explanation.

January of 2008 will be alot more peaceful if the code change instructors do a good job.

David

I am with you also, especially after scoping out [406.11] impacts relying on the [210.52] areas specified list that is so misleading when doing take-offs for tamper resistant GFCI and general purpose receptacle costs. The AFCI-GFCI is as clear as S.F. fog. Inclusion of what is and not permitted in crawl, attic, roof service area 25' at level [210.63] would help everyone save time
and sanity. These vague areas are going to present uneeded discussions on residential rough inspections for you guys. (AFCI requirement in the dining area mix with GFCI will be a good one for starters.)