Indoor GFI receptacles
- Thread starter billduke
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Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
All 125-volt single phase, 15 and 20 amp receptacles installed in kitchens (in other than dwelling units) shall have gfci protection for personel.
Thats with some text cut and pasted, so see NEC 210.8 B (3)for the exact wording.
By the way, this is new for the 2002 code, so if they are still going by the '99 where your at, it may be optional.
STeve
All 125-volt single phase, 15 and 20 amp receptacles installed in kitchens (in other than dwelling units) shall have gfci protection for personel.
Thats with some text cut and pasted, so see NEC 210.8 B (3)for the exact wording.
By the way, this is new for the 2002 code, so if they are still going by the '99 where your at, it may be optional.
STeve
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
A proposal for the 2005 NEC will define a kitchen as a counter area used for food prep.
A proposal for the 2005 NEC will define a kitchen as a counter area used for food prep.
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
We just remodeled a small take-out restaurant. On the electrical permit in big bold letters it said:
"ALL KITCHEN RECEPTACLES ARE TO BE GFCI PROTECTED"
So that's what we did. Upon final inspection, however, the inspector noticed that the freezer and both refrigerators were on GFCI's.
He made us replace the GFCI receptacles with single non-gfci ones.
He said to us: " Do you know how much food would spoil if one of those would trip?"
Go figure!
Moral of the story: Check with the AHJ.
We just remodeled a small take-out restaurant. On the electrical permit in big bold letters it said:
"ALL KITCHEN RECEPTACLES ARE TO BE GFCI PROTECTED"
So that's what we did. Upon final inspection, however, the inspector noticed that the freezer and both refrigerators were on GFCI's.
He made us replace the GFCI receptacles with single non-gfci ones.
He said to us: " Do you know how much food would spoil if one of those would trip?"
Go figure!
Moral of the story: Check with the AHJ.
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
Mikeholz2, that would seem to go back to the "dedicated circuit" question. I would consider the receps. supplying the ref. & freezer to be dedicated circuits, install non-GFCI single receps. It wouldn't hurt to check with the AHJ on what he meant by "All Kitchen Recepticals are to be GFCI Protected". I would take that to be all small appliance recepticals.
Mikeholz2, that would seem to go back to the "dedicated circuit" question. I would consider the receps. supplying the ref. & freezer to be dedicated circuits, install non-GFCI single receps. It wouldn't hurt to check with the AHJ on what he meant by "All Kitchen Recepticals are to be GFCI Protected". I would take that to be all small appliance recepticals.
bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
Chris,
As Steve said above the 2002 NEC requires all 125-volt single phase, 15 and 20 amp receptacles installed in kitchens (in other than dwelling units) shall have gfci protection for personel. This would include the ones behind the fridge(s)
For what it's worth I put in a proposal to have this changed in the 2005 so that receptacles behind refrigerators and freezers could be non-gfci but it was shot down.
It seems that the CMP does not agree with your Inspector's viewpoint on this.
Bill
[ October 08, 2003, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: bill addiss ]
Chris,
As Steve said above the 2002 NEC requires all 125-volt single phase, 15 and 20 amp receptacles installed in kitchens (in other than dwelling units) shall have gfci protection for personel. This would include the ones behind the fridge(s)
For what it's worth I put in a proposal to have this changed in the 2005 so that receptacles behind refrigerators and freezers could be non-gfci but it was shot down.
Here's the Panel Statement on 2-40:
mikeholz2,
It seems that the CMP does not agree with your Inspector's viewpoint on this.
Bill
[ October 08, 2003, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: bill addiss ]
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
I'm sure Charlie is going to beat me up for this, but heres my two cents.
The proccess to change the NEC is ridiculous. It seems to me that you need dead bodies on the floor to show the CMP or you will get rejected.
What about IG receptacles? What about receptacles located flush with the ceiling? What about receptacles that are not readily accessible?
In my opinion, the scope of article 210.8 is protection for personnel, not protection for equipment. I hate the addition of kitchens in 210.8
Sorry about the rant, and Charlie: I mean no disrepect.
I'm sure Charlie is going to beat me up for this, but heres my two cents.
The proccess to change the NEC is ridiculous. It seems to me that you need dead bodies on the floor to show the CMP or you will get rejected.
What about IG receptacles? What about receptacles located flush with the ceiling? What about receptacles that are not readily accessible?
In my opinion, the scope of article 210.8 is protection for personnel, not protection for equipment. I hate the addition of kitchens in 210.8
Sorry about the rant, and Charlie: I mean no disrepect.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
Ryan
The requirement of the 'other than dwelling unit' kitchen receptacles to be GFCI protected was installed because a kitchen person was killed using a standard receptacle will working in the kitchen.
Pierre
Ryan
The requirement of the 'other than dwelling unit' kitchen receptacles to be GFCI protected was installed because a kitchen person was killed using a standard receptacle will working in the kitchen.
Pierre
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
Pieere: Thanks for the input. I have no problem installing GFCI's anywhere. I only have issues with REQUIRING them behind equipment or on an IG circuit for a computer on a POS system that may even be a singular receptacle. I think the intent is good, but, like Bill, I think there should be some exceptions.
Pieere: Thanks for the input. I have no problem installing GFCI's anywhere. I only have issues with REQUIRING them behind equipment or on an IG circuit for a computer on a POS system that may even be a singular receptacle. I think the intent is good, but, like Bill, I think there should be some exceptions.
bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
Ryan,
I thought pointing to the 'known' incompatability in another section of the code would be a pretty good reason to allow the exception to 210.8(B). I surmised that adequate substantiation must have been presented to get 525.23(B) in there.
If you dislike it that much there's still time to send in a Comment on one of the proposals to change it.
Bill
Ryan,
I thought pointing to the 'known' incompatability in another section of the code would be a pretty good reason to allow the exception to 210.8(B). I surmised that adequate substantiation must have been presented to get 525.23(B) in there.
If you dislike it that much there's still time to send in a Comment on one of the proposals to change it.
Bill
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
Another issue with requiring GFCI's behind kitchen equipment is that they aren't accessible to test. Every GFCI I have seen says to "test monthly". Who is going to move a refrigerator every month to test the unit. Also, the same applies to resetting the unit. When a frig quits, the kitchen staff won't know to check an outlet that they can't see. And even if they did, they may not be able to access the outlet due to the weight of the frig, or the plumbing to the frig.
Steve
Another issue with requiring GFCI's behind kitchen equipment is that they aren't accessible to test. Every GFCI I have seen says to "test monthly". Who is going to move a refrigerator every month to test the unit. Also, the same applies to resetting the unit. When a frig quits, the kitchen staff won't know to check an outlet that they can't see. And even if they did, they may not be able to access the outlet due to the weight of the frig, or the plumbing to the frig.
Steve
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
Just thought here, A single dedicated circuit for a piece of equipment that in normal circumstances is not portable have a GFI, Also with a GFI I would think that being readly accessable is a requirement and moving a fully load refrigator to check or test the GFI would make accessabliltiy invalid.
I guess I am looking at it from a access point of view to reset the GFI.
Just thought here, A single dedicated circuit for a piece of equipment that in normal circumstances is not portable have a GFI, Also with a GFI I would think that being readly accessable is a requirement and moving a fully load refrigator to check or test the GFI would make accessabliltiy invalid.
I guess I am looking at it from a access point of view to reset the GFI.
bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
Steve, Rick,
The way it reads is that the receptacles "shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection" which means it could be on a GFCI breaker too. So installing a GFCI receptacle would be poor design issue IMO.
Bill
Steve, Rick,
The way it reads is that the receptacles "shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection" which means it could be on a GFCI breaker too. So installing a GFCI receptacle would be poor design issue IMO.
Bill
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
The method of changing is a consensus process. All interests are represented, not just the utilities, or building officials, or manufacturers, or union members, or . . . The general feeling on every panel is that a documented problem must exist before a change is made. The reality is that many changes are made without any documented problems, just anecdotal evidence. In the case of commercial kitchens, they had the bodies. People have been hurt by refrigerators in commercial kitchens. If they are working correctly, a GFCI will never trip. If they are leaking that much, the GFCI should trip to protect people and not the food.
Ryan, no offence taken. Don't pull punches because of me.
Darn, I really intended to stay out of this one.
The method of changing is a consensus process. All interests are represented, not just the utilities, or building officials, or manufacturers, or union members, or . . . The general feeling on every panel is that a documented problem must exist before a change is made. The reality is that many changes are made without any documented problems, just anecdotal evidence. In the case of commercial kitchens, they had the bodies. People have been hurt by refrigerators in commercial kitchens. If they are working correctly, a GFCI will never trip. If they are leaking that much, the GFCI should trip to protect people and not the food.
Ryan, no offence taken. Don't pull punches because of me.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
I want to make sure I didn't send the wrong impression about CMP members. On page 21 of the NEC, near the bottom of the page, is the committee scope: This committee shall have primary responsibility for documents on minimizing the risk of electricity as a source of electric shock and as a potential ignition source of fires and explosions. It shall also be responsible for text to minimize the propogation of fire and explosions due to electrical installations.
When you really boil it down, these individuals have one hell of a responsibility, and I think for the most part they shoulder it very well.
I want to make sure I didn't send the wrong impression about CMP members. On page 21 of the NEC, near the bottom of the page, is the committee scope: This committee shall have primary responsibility for documents on minimizing the risk of electricity as a source of electric shock and as a potential ignition source of fires and explosions. It shall also be responsible for text to minimize the propogation of fire and explosions due to electrical installations.
When you really boil it down, these individuals have one hell of a responsibility, and I think for the most part they shoulder it very well.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Indoor GFI receptacles
Bill and I already went around on this subject at his site and while I do not agree this is something that needs changing I applaud his getting involved with the code making process instead of just complaining about it, like so many of us do.
IMO, a little (or even a lot) of spoiled food or POS equipment that does not work is of little consequence.
Given the environment of a commercial kitchen, with all the grounded surfaces and the torn and damaged cords on equipment I see, I believe this is a good requirement that may save some lives.
The makers of the POS equipment can find ways for this equipment to be interconnected without tripping the GFCIs and the appliance manufacturers can do better job making their equipment.
Once a company starts getting a bad rep with the equipment specifiers and is losing business you can bet that they will address this issue and probably put in their ads "fully operational on NEC required GFCI receptacles"
The learning curve will be tough though.
JMO, Bob
Bill and I already went around on this subject at his site and while I do not agree this is something that needs changing I applaud his getting involved with the code making process
instead of just complaining about it, like so many of us do.IMO, a little (or even a lot) of spoiled food or POS equipment that does not work is of little consequence.
Given the environment of a commercial kitchen, with all the grounded surfaces and the torn and damaged cords on equipment I see, I believe this is a good requirement that may save some lives.
The makers of the POS equipment can find ways for this equipment to be interconnected without tripping the GFCIs and the appliance manufacturers can do better job making their equipment.
Once a company starts getting a bad rep with the equipment specifiers and is losing business you can bet that they will address this issue and probably put in their ads "fully operational on NEC required GFCI receptacles"
The learning curve will be tough though.
JMO, Bob
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