"INFEASIBILITY"?? Another Electrical Accident to learn from

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brother

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This just goes to push my point home about the word 'infeasible' has a more 'narrow' definition than what most people think, even if its LIFE support. This discussion came up when talks about NFPA 70e just recently at one of the places I do work at.

Well, this actually happen a while ago, (few years to be exact). They were doing more than just 'testing, voltage, amperage etc. One of the old timers told me about an accident that happen at the hospital when they were working on the 'critical power'(ie emergency,life support). When they took the cover off, one part of the plate fell up against the buss.

Well you know what happen next, BOOM!! it shorted it out, and it SHUTDOWN the power. Basically, what (they said) could not be shutdown, is now shutdown!!. The guys were burned a little and they ran to the E.R. It took a while to get the Critical loads back up.

The problem was that this panel was one of the MAIN panels, just after the Automatic transfer switch, so even if the emergency back up came on, There STILL would not have been any power up to the critical loads. The good news is they recovered and the 'buss' was still usable which helped get the power back up quicker.

This story helps me to be more aware and to try to 'push' more for the power to be turned off, EVEN in a hospital setting for 'life sustaining equipment' even though OSHA allows for that to justify the 'infeasibility' clause. Maybe that should be taken out of the OSHA.

This could have been avoided through proper PLANNING and training. Other than 'testing' (ie voltage, amp readings, adjustments) I now see very little reason to leave the power on for hot work, like installing 20 amp breakers etc.. like I use to do in the past. EVEN if its 'life support'.

What do you think ?? Love to hear opinions, especially on the comment I made about removing the exception, for LIFE support as infeasible. I know that wont happen no time soon.
 
brother said:
This just goes to push my point home about the word 'infeasible' has a more 'narrow' definition than what most people think, even if its LIFE support. This discussion came up when talks about NFPA 70e just recently at one of the places I do work at.

Well, this actually happen a while ago, (few years to be exact). They were doing more than just 'testing, voltage, amperage etc. One of the old timers told me about an accident that happen at the hospital when they were working on the 'critical power'(ie emergency,life support). When they took the cover off, one part of the plate fell up against the buss.

Well you know what happen next, BOOM!! it shorted it out, and it SHUTDOWN the power. Basically, what (they said) could not be shutdown, is now shutdown!!. The guys were burned a little and they ran to the E.R. It took a while to get the Critical loads back up.

The problem was that this panel was one of the MAIN panels, just after the Automatic transfer switch, so even if the emergency back up came on, There STILL would not have been any power up to the critical loads. The good news is they recovered and the 'buss' was still usable which helped get the power back up quicker.

This story helps me to be more aware and to try to 'push' more for the power to be turned off, EVEN in a hospital setting for 'life sustaining equipment' even though OSHA allows for that to justify the 'infeasibility' clause. Maybe that should be taken out of the OSHA.

This could have been avoided through proper PLANNING and training. Other than 'testing' (ie voltage, amp readings, adjustments) I now see very little reason to leave the power on for hot work, like installing 20 amp breakers etc.. like I use to do in the past. EVEN if its 'life support'.

What do you think ?? Love to hear opinions, especially on the comment I made about removing the exception, for LIFE support as infeasible. I know that wont happen no time soon.
Click to expand...

there's been plenty of threads in the past but I am a big No-Live-work guy.
 
Brother - why is it you get so emotional on these topics? You have a right to refuse to do anything you feel is unsafe - right? Is this a type of a situation you are "in"? Or a hypothetical?

If it's one you're in - it might be time to make a move to a happier shop. If hypothetical....
 
e57 said:
Brother - why is it you get so emotional on these topics? You have a right to refuse to do anything you feel is unsafe - right? Is this a type of a situation you are "in"? Or a hypothetical?

If it's one you're in - it might be time to make a move to a happier shop. If hypothetical....
Click to expand...

What in the world are you TALKING about???!! I failed to see where all this 'emotion' you seem to misinterpet to be there. I'm very well aware of that I do not have to work in any situation that I feel is unsafe.

I'm merely making a thread/conversation and asking an opinion about the 'removal' of the exception in the osha rule, thats all. I thought maybe the conversation I had about some old timers that got hurt a few years ago would help open more eyes on the understanding of 'INFEASIBILITY' as I have seen too many fellow electricians have a misunderstanding of it.

And at present I am 'not' in any situation right now, and Im VERY happy where I work. In fact, I believe my job was an answer to prayer. Have a good day. ;)
 
In regards to the question.
I do not see anytime soon the removal of the permission to work hot if removing power creates a hazardous situation.

What I would like to see is better training to help the installer to become "qualified" to perform the work properly.

Also, the person who sends the worker to the site to work, and it is proven the worker is not qualified, said person should be held liable. It is my understanding the owner of the company is permitted to decide that a worker is qualified to perform the task sent to.
We all know that there are times a person is sent to a task and may not be qualified.
For those situations, the fines/penalties should be very stiff, therefore hopefully reducing the number of incidents of unqualified persons performing the work.
 
IMO,
I agree about the hot circuits. :smile:

I have never liked working hot circuits.
BUT,

I was the electrician at a university hospital for several years, and in the Critical Care Unit all work was done LIVE, because patients were connected. Needless to say, ALL installations were checked, rechecked, and never had to be fixed. All leakage testing was done weekly, per JHA requirements. If there were a problem, the patient would have to be moved to another circuit, via portable equipment.

In the hospital we measured leakage in the MicroAmp range!!!
Something like 10 microAmps was the tolerated standard,
since patients were connected intravaneously
where the highly conductive blood stream went straight to the heart.

:smile:
 
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Pierre,

Many years back, I worked as the senior electrician at a university hospital.
We had a Critical Care Unit (CCU) and a generator backup, and an automatic transfer switch.
There was a project to upgrade the 'ancient' transfer switch with a newer model. The EC sent a man to begin the installation. His first action was to begin disconnecting the old transfer switch. Obviously, the plan was to replace the switch in a swap-out "in situ".
:mad: During the swap-out the CCU would be without backup power. :mad:

Notice that I said the worker first action was to "BEGIN" the removal of the old switch. I always followed the EC guys around, just to keep tabs on what interesting work was going on. I was the only person watching this un-announced work on the premises. I told the EC's man that he could not disconnect the switch because there were patients on the system. He said he had his 'work order'. I called for a security guard, and again asked him to stop, take a 'five minute coffee break', avoid personal embarrassment, while I got a supervisor from the hospital to inspect the safety of the work. This relieved the EC's electrician from being responsible, which he agreed was a good idea. So, the EC's man took a break. I called the director of the physical plant, and he trotted right over in less than five minutes, putting a firm 'HOLD' on the job.

The CCU and the surgical area were busy that day.
There was 'open heart surgery' going on, and a 'liver transplant' was scheduled for the afternoon. This was a 'BAD' day for swapping out the transfer switches, by any method.

So, at this point, the job was only 'STARTED' and a 'HOLD' was in place by the campus authority. The EC himself came in for a confab, and it was decided that the electrician should mount the 'new' transfer switch next to the 'old' transfer switch, then parallel wire the new on in place, then cut the 'old' one out of the system.

All this swap-out was done 'LIVE'. When both were in place, with the 'new' switch 'off', the 'old' switch was switched 'off' and immediately the 'new' switch was turned on. Only a few seconds lapsed between the 'off' and the 'on'.

Did I say that right? That is what was done, 1979, to the best of my recollection. I don't know of a method that would have been much better, but my only option was to inform my administrators of a safety problem. They responded quickly.

The sun shone brightly the next day.
I ended up with more college and a promotion into a research area.

Comments? :smile:
 
I think the new 2008 code requirement of MWBC to have handle ties will have an unintended affect of more live work, as two or three circuits would have to be turned off instead of just the circuit being worked on. This is just a fact of life whether anybody likes it or not. Not that its correct in doing so, but will be done anyway. Where turning off the one circuit would not have been a problem, turning off two or more would.
 
Such requirements for live work exist. My issue is that such circuitry must therefore meet tighter restrictions.

In our industrial environment all components inside the industrial enclosure must be finger safe. All of our Jbox components must be finger safe. Here, the cover plate could have been thrown at the inside of the enclosure and nothing would have shorted let alone contact the buss. Even before finger safe components were common a hinged cover would have prevented that accident. Live work panels should also include excessive working space.
 
Beyond the safety aspect for the workers working on something live because the shutting down would cause a bigger hazard, I have to ask about the unplanned shut down that may happen as a result of this live work. If a planned shut down would be a hazard, how much bigger hazard would be created by an unplanned shut down?
 
I think they should have been more careful pulling off the cover.:rolleyes:

Doing an estimate, I pulled an access cover off a 480V 800 amp section one time to check for conduit access for a new circuit. Someone (handyman/building "engineer") had taken off/lost a retaining clip and the cover came kind of close to falling back into the bus. I was pissed. I re-installed it and wrote a big warning note on it.
 
220/221 said:
I think they should have been more careful pulling off the cover.:rolleyes:

Doing an estimate, I pulled an access cover off a 480V 800 amp section one time to check for conduit access for a new circuit. Someone (handyman/building "engineer") had taken off/lost a retaining clip and the cover came kind of close to falling back into the bus. I was pissed. I re-installed it and wrote a big warning note on it.
Click to expand...



As careful as some are, it only takes one mistake...even if that mistake is made by someone else.
 
220/221 said:
I think they should have been more careful pulling off the cover.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...


... Although the arc-flash lasted only one-tenth of a second, it burned through all three 2-in.- wide bus bars feeding a single breaker in the bottom of this same section (Photo 1 above) and torched a large hole through the face of the lower section?s cover (Photos 2 and 3 below).


Without warning, the heat from this sudden arc created an explosion that penetrated the electrician?s shirt and severely burned his stomach .....
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202ecm07pic2.jpg


Misplaced Tools Can Lead to Tragedy for Maintenance Electricians
 
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i was in the back of a restaurant one time, forget what I was doing, but I brushed against the cover of a fused disco switch -*BOOM* and the whole place went dark. After changing my pants, i got a flashlight and opened it (the main breaker had tripped). Some moron tapped the line side of this 200a 480v fused disco with split bolts. Well the split bolts werent taped well and an exposed edge was resting against the side of the cabinet. When i brushed against the cover, the splitbolt scratched the paint and blew a 2" hole in the side of the cabinet and left a huge burn mark on the wall. I was REALLY lucky this blew out the side of the box and away from me and not in my face.
 
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