I do not work on too many pools, so I just want to refresh my knowledge. I reviewed 680., but still find myself a little confused. I plan on istalling a 100 A sub panel outside, dedicated for the pool equipment(heater, (2) 220 pumps for filter and polaris) My question relates to the bonding, I understand I must bond to the motor lugs, and re-bar of pool structure, all metal components, but must I connect the #8 bare ground to the ground bus bar of the outdoor sub-panel. Is that making a bond grid and essentially connecting it to the residence grounding system? Should I not connect the #8 to the outdoor panel and Just the motors and metal surrounding the pool area. My other concern is that the area that the homeowner is putting the pool is tight. I buried 200 amp Al. service lines going to the pole about 5 ft from pool structure. I know the undergroung conductors must be 5 ft. away from pool structure. I am right at five feet with my lines, should I be concearned about underground voltage leak? Thanks for the refresher.
inground pool bonding
- Thread starter m5352
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
The #8 bond does nothing other than connect all those metal pathways together. The #8 doesn't connect directly to any panel. Usually it will start at the pool area and bond everything there and the end is left loose where the pump equipment is installed. Once the equipment is installed the bond wire must be connected to the lugs on the pumps, heater, etc.m5352 said:
If you are within code you should be okay. I personally wouldn't want it that close but it is code. There have been many threads on voltage leaks in the pool caused by the power companies wires that were much further away.m5352 said:
Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
Another code oddity. The euipotential grid is not required to be connected to the ground buss of the disc. on a pool, but it must be connected to the ground buss as applied in #682.
radiopet
Senior Member
- Location
- Spotsylvania, VA
m5352,
I would not be as concerned on the "leak" in regards to the installation you describe. Dennis is 100% correct in that you are creating a "EP" around the pool to bring the area around it up to the potential level in the ground due to issues that would put voltage in the ground around the pool.
Due to the method of grounding the utility systems and so on there is always voltage on the earth at any given time...safe wiring methods in your application can reduce the chances of putting more....
While it does nothing to remove the voltage, a properly done "EP" can technically MASK it around your pool.
Mike Holt actually has some GREAT newsletters on this, go to his site and click on newsletters and look under "Stray Voltage" and you will find some interesting readings......
Also remember just in case you are doing one of those "intermatic" type pool control panels...they are not service equipment rated and you would need a disconnection means at this " structure " or within sight of and the 6 throw would not apply.....if using a standard remote distribution panel then it probably would be fine.
I would not be as concerned on the "leak" in regards to the installation you describe. Dennis is 100% correct in that you are creating a "EP" around the pool to bring the area around it up to the potential level in the ground due to issues that would put voltage in the ground around the pool.
Due to the method of grounding the utility systems and so on there is always voltage on the earth at any given time...safe wiring methods in your application can reduce the chances of putting more....
While it does nothing to remove the voltage, a properly done "EP" can technically MASK it around your pool.
Mike Holt actually has some GREAT newsletters on this, go to his site and click on newsletters and look under "Stray Voltage" and you will find some interesting readings......
Also remember just in case you are doing one of those "intermatic" type pool control panels...they are not service equipment rated and you would need a disconnection means at this " structure " or within sight of and the 6 throw would not apply.....if using a standard remote distribution panel then it probably would be fine.
pool bonding
pool bonding
Hey guys, thanks very much for the feedback, I did not think I should attatch the #8 to the ground bus, but I'm glad you guys confirmed it for me. I was planning on using the Intermatic 125A pool panel with the two timer pool set-up. Are you saying this panel is insufficient for this application? I plan on having switches for the two pumps( not just using the slide bar attatched to the timer ) As for the bonding issue I plan on bonding:
1. Re-bar
2. Metal ladder
3. UNDERWATER LIGHT BRASS CONDUIT
4. MOTOR LUGS ON BOTH PUMPS
5. HEATER LUG
6. I PLAN ON GOING COMPLETELY AROUND POOL WITH #8
THIS SOUND GOOD GUYS?
pool bonding
Hey guys, thanks very much for the feedback, I did not think I should attatch the #8 to the ground bus, but I'm glad you guys confirmed it for me. I was planning on using the Intermatic 125A pool panel with the two timer pool set-up. Are you saying this panel is insufficient for this application? I plan on having switches for the two pumps( not just using the slide bar attatched to the timer ) As for the bonding issue I plan on bonding:
1. Re-bar
2. Metal ladder
3. UNDERWATER LIGHT BRASS CONDUIT
4. MOTOR LUGS ON BOTH PUMPS
5. HEATER LUG
6. I PLAN ON GOING COMPLETELY AROUND POOL WITH #8
THIS SOUND GOOD GUYS?
Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
And the screen cage and heater. Looks good to me.
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
m5352 said:
This is how I would do this....
One #8 from pool re-bar to pool equipment, leave slack for all equipment,
then I would hit the light lugs to the pool re-bar, ladder to re-bar, any other metal around the pool to the re-bar... I would not waste my time going around the pool with the #8.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
stickboy1375 said:
Me neither. Just connect it all together. Encircling the pool with the #8 is not really necessary.
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
infinity said:
Isn't there a code change coming up for some type of 4 point bonding?
Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
stickboy1375 said:
You will in the State of Florida. Effective July, 1 2007. It is an Alternet method to the required 6" bonding grid required by nec 2005
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stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
Cavie said:
No I won't....
Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
stickboy1375 said:
I don't have the precise wording at home but this is close.
The #8 is to be connected at 4 points around the pool. The #8 is burried 4 to 6" in the sub grade of the pool deck 12" to 18" from the edge of the pool. It is to include unpaved areas as well as all paved areas. all required by nec 2005
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stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
Cavie said:
Another change proposal from the wire/copper manufactures... :roll:
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
georgestolz said:
It is requird by Fla state Statute adopted July 1 2007. as an alternitive method to the copper bonding grid. I don't have the perticular # here at home.
You guys are so wraped up in the NEC, you forget that there are other building codes we must obey. (becides She who must be obeyed)
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
I respect that, but your last post indicated it was "required by the 2005 NEC" which is incorrect.Cavie said:
FWIW, I believe the OP is in the northeastern corner of the country.Cavie said:
Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
georgestolz said:
These changes will be in the 2008 nec
radiopet
Senior Member
- Location
- Spotsylvania, VA
2008 NEC - Perimeter Surfaces
(2) Perimeter Surfaces. Extends for 1 m (3 ft) horizontally
beyond the inside walls of the pool. Includes unpaved
surfaces as well as poured concrete and other types of paving.
Bonding for perimeter surfaces shall be provided as
specified in 680.26(B)(2)(a) or 680.26(B)(2)(b), and attached
to the pool reinforcing steel or copper conductor
grid at a minimum of four (4) points uniformly spaced
around the perimeter of the pool. For nonconductive pool
shells, bonding at four points shall not be required. [ROP
17-114a]
AS for the pool itself...2008 just added some additional options depending on the pool setup really.
This is an example:
( either the rebar as we have done in the past for 2005 NEC ) and now the below option as well.
(b) Copper Conductor Grid. The copper bonding grid
shall be constructed and installed in accordance with (1),
2), and (3). [ROP 17-114a]
1) Materials and Connections. The grid shall be constructed
of minimum 8 AWG bare solid copper conductors.
Conductors shall be bonded to each other at all
points of crossing. [ROP 17-114a]
2) Grid Structure. The grid shall conform to the contour
of the pool and the pool deck. It shall be arranged in a
300 mm (12 in.) by 300 mm (12 in.) network of conductors
in a uniformly spaced perpendicular grid pattern
with tolerance of 100 mm (4 in.). [ROP 17-114a]
3) Securing. The below-grade grid shall be secured within
or under the pool. It shall follow the contours of the
pool shell. When not part of the pool shell, it shall be
secured no more than 150 mm (6 in.) from the outer
contour of the pool shell. [ROP 17-114a]
(C) Equipotential Bonding Grid. The parts specified in
680.26(B) shall be connected to an equipotential bonding
grid with a solid copper conductor, insulated, covered, or
bare, not smaller than 8 AWG or rigid metal conduit of
brass or other identified corrosion-resistant metal conduit.
Connection shall be made by exothermic welding or by
listed pressure connectors or clamps that are labeled as
being suitable for the purpose and are of stainless steel,
brass, copper, or copper alloy. The equipotential bonding
grid shall extend under paved walking surfaces for 1 m
(3 ft) horizontally beyond the inside walls of the pool and
shall be permitted to be any of the following:
(1) Structural Reinforcing Steel. The structural reinforcing
steel of a concrete pool where the reinforcing rods are
bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or the
equivalent
(2) Bolted or Welded Metal Pools. The wall of a bolted or
welded metal pool
(3) Alternate Means. This system shall be permitted to be
constructed as specified in (a) through (c):
a. Materials and Connections. The grid shall be constructed
of minimum 8 AWG bare solid copper conductors.
Conductors shall be bonded to each other at
all points of crossing. Connections shall be made as
required by 680.26(D).
b. Grid Structure. The equipotential bonding grid shall
cover the contour of the pool and the pool deck
extending 1 m (3 ft) horizontally from the inside
walls of the pool. The equipotential bonding grid
shall be arranged in a 300 mm (12 in.) by 300 mm
(12 in.) network of conductors in a uniformly
spaced perpendicular grid pattern with tolerance of
100 mm (4 in.).
(2) Perimeter Surfaces. Extends for 1 m (3 ft) horizontally
beyond the inside walls of the pool. Includes unpaved
surfaces as well as poured concrete and other types of paving.
Bonding for perimeter surfaces shall be provided as
specified in 680.26(B)(2)(a) or 680.26(B)(2)(b), and attached
to the pool reinforcing steel or copper conductor
grid at a minimum of four (4) points uniformly spaced
around the perimeter of the pool. For nonconductive pool
shells, bonding at four points shall not be required. [ROP
17-114a]
AS for the pool itself...2008 just added some additional options depending on the pool setup really.
This is an example:
( either the rebar as we have done in the past for 2005 NEC ) and now the below option as well.
(b) Copper Conductor Grid. The copper bonding grid
shall be constructed and installed in accordance with (1),
2), and (3). [ROP 17-114a]
1) Materials and Connections. The grid shall be constructed
of minimum 8 AWG bare solid copper conductors.
Conductors shall be bonded to each other at all
points of crossing. [ROP 17-114a]
2) Grid Structure. The grid shall conform to the contour
of the pool and the pool deck. It shall be arranged in a
300 mm (12 in.) by 300 mm (12 in.) network of conductors
in a uniformly spaced perpendicular grid pattern
with tolerance of 100 mm (4 in.). [ROP 17-114a]
3) Securing. The below-grade grid shall be secured within
or under the pool. It shall follow the contours of the
pool shell. When not part of the pool shell, it shall be
secured no more than 150 mm (6 in.) from the outer
contour of the pool shell. [ROP 17-114a]
(C) Equipotential Bonding Grid. The parts specified in
680.26(B) shall be connected to an equipotential bonding
grid with a solid copper conductor, insulated, covered, or
bare, not smaller than 8 AWG or rigid metal conduit of
brass or other identified corrosion-resistant metal conduit.
Connection shall be made by exothermic welding or by
listed pressure connectors or clamps that are labeled as
being suitable for the purpose and are of stainless steel,
brass, copper, or copper alloy. The equipotential bonding
grid shall extend under paved walking surfaces for 1 m
(3 ft) horizontally beyond the inside walls of the pool and
shall be permitted to be any of the following:
(1) Structural Reinforcing Steel. The structural reinforcing
steel of a concrete pool where the reinforcing rods are
bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or the
equivalent
(2) Bolted or Welded Metal Pools. The wall of a bolted or
welded metal pool
(3) Alternate Means. This system shall be permitted to be
constructed as specified in (a) through (c):
a. Materials and Connections. The grid shall be constructed
of minimum 8 AWG bare solid copper conductors.
Conductors shall be bonded to each other at
all points of crossing. Connections shall be made as
required by 680.26(D).
b. Grid Structure. The equipotential bonding grid shall
cover the contour of the pool and the pool deck
extending 1 m (3 ft) horizontally from the inside
walls of the pool. The equipotential bonding grid
shall be arranged in a 300 mm (12 in.) by 300 mm
(12 in.) network of conductors in a uniformly
spaced perpendicular grid pattern with tolerance of
100 mm (4 in.).
Cavie
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
radiopet said:
It seems there is a bit of politics going on here. Here is the Fla version adopted thru State Statute
CHAPTER 2007-187
Committee Substitute for Senate Bill No. 2836
Be It Enacted by the Legislature of the State of Florida:
Section 1. The Florida Building Commission shall review the requirements
in the National Electrical Code (2005) which relate to bonding and
grounding systems for swimming pools. The commission may adopt a rule
authorizing the use of a method for bonding and grounding systems which
is an alternative to what is permitted by the National Electrical Code. The
commission is further authorized to integrate that alternative method into
the 2007 edition of the Florida Building Code, notwithstanding the requirements
of s. 553.73, Florida Statutes. Until the commission adopts a rule for
an alternate method for bonding and grounding systems for swimming
pools, the use of an underground bonding conductor made of a single #8
AWG bare solid copper wire buried to a minimum depth of 4 inches to 6
inches below subgrade, and 18 inches to 24 inches from inside the wall of
a swimming pool or spa, is deemed a permissible alternative or equivalent
to compliance with s. 680.26(c) of the National Electrical Code (2005), NFPA
No. 70, adopted by reference within the Florida Building Code.
thereby eliminating the coper bonding grid.
- Status