Inspection question.

p51

Member
Location
south Florida
I am a Lic. Elec. Cont. in Palm Beach County, Fl. . I recently did a panel change out in a home built in the '50s, fuses, for breakers, 100A for !00A, With a permit.
I called in the inspection, and was not able to get in touch with the inspector to get a time to meet. The job failed inspection, the reason given was, " I needed to install GFCI outlets in the kitchen and bathroom as per the current NEC code (2017).
My permit was approved for the panel change out, no mention of GFCI's. I can't get paid until I pass inspection on the job I contracted for. The homeowner does not want to pay for the extra work. I feel they should inspect the work my permit was approved for, and take up the other issue with the owner.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Around here a permit for a panel change is only for that. If the inspector has the power to require more than what is on the permit then it's the homeowners problem to pay for what he required.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Occupation
Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
My permit was approved for the panel change out, no mention of GFCI's. I can't get paid until I pass inspection on the job I contracted for. The homeowner does not want to pay for the extra work. I feel they should inspect the work my permit was approved for, and take up the other issue with the owner.
As a licensed electrical contractor you are responsible for complying with all applicable laws regardless of whether or not you considered it in your contract. As part of a panel change out, you would need to think about the impact of any current building codes. Aside from the cost of a few GFCI breakers, why not just do it and mitigate the liability? Don’t you have provisions in your contract to handle incidental/coincident work or scope changes?
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I feel they should inspect the work my permit was approved for, and take up the other issue with the owner.
I feel you are probably right but I would just get some GFCI receptacles or breakers and change them out to pass inspection.

The most expensive thing you can ever do is get bogged down on one little job. You should always add a little extra to each job for the unknown.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
You applied for a permit, filled out the paperwork and told the permitting office what equipment you were going to change. And they agreed to the work (or gave you permission to complete the work you told them) you were going to do, and didn’t add any stipulations to the permit.
yet then when you get your required inspections the inspector adds on additional requirements not in the original agreement?
It almost is like breach of contract…


Crap like this is why so many people do or attempt to do un-permitted work, and I really can’t blame them.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
No such thing is required here on a panel change. We don't even have to upgrade the GES unless something is changed on the service.
Sure but it can get expensive traveling from South Florida to Tennessee to do panel changes.

Remember the old adage. When in Rome don't bend over.
 

xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Occupation
Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
I recently did a panel change out in a home built in the '50s, fuses, for breakers,
This is where the problem is. The installation was most likely compliant per the code in the 50’s. You then come along and upgrade a portion of the installation now rendering it not compliant by today’s standards. Fuse to breaker conversion is not a like/kind replacement. Do you really expect the inspector to notice no GFCI’s, sign off, and walk away?

I know we like to hate on inspectors, but the inspector is doing the right thing. Perhaps he was giving you the benefit of the doubt thinking your work (or someone else’s work) had already accounted for GFCI protection, making a panel change out straight forward.
 

Tulsa Electrician

Senior Member
Location
Tulsa
Occupation
Electrician
See what the local amendments are for that municipality, Then decide.
They may have it written like some areas have with some smoke detectors.
Most of the time you can down load from that city's website.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
As a licensed electrical contractor you are responsible for complying with all applicable laws regardless of whether or not you considered it in your contract. As part of a panel change out, you would need to think about the impact of any current building codes. Aside from the cost of a few GFCI breakers, why not just do it and mitigate the liability? Don’t you have provisions in your contract to handle incidental/coincident work or scope changes?


I disagree. The permit covers the work you are permitted for and nothing else. In your case would I have to add smokes, run new circuits etc. Where would it stop. It stops at the work you did nothing more. Now there may be a local amendment that requires this but otherwise the inspector is incorrect.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
This is where the problem is. The installation was most likely compliant per the code in the 50’s. You then come along and upgrade a portion of the installation now rendering it not compliant by today’s standards. Fuse to breaker conversion is not a like/kind replacement. Do you really expect the inspector to notice no GFCI’s, sign off, and walk away?

I know we like to hate on inspectors, but the inspector is doing the right thing. Perhaps he was giving you the benefit of the doubt thinking your work (or someone else’s work) had already accounted for GFCI protection, making a panel change out straight forward.

As I understand it the poster did not do any work in the kitchens and bathrooms so how does changing the service make it not compliant?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I know this in NC that would never fly as it is clearly written by the state that we are only responsible for what is on the permit
 

SSDriver

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Electrician
I am a Lic. Elec. Cont. in Palm Beach County, Fl. . I recently did a panel change out in a home built in the '50s, fuses, for breakers, 100A for !00A, With a permit.
I called in the inspection, and was not able to get in touch with the inspector to get a time to meet. The job failed inspection, the reason given was, " I needed to install GFCI outlets in the kitchen and bathroom as per the current NEC code (2017).
My permit was approved for the panel change out, no mention of GFCI's. I can't get paid until I pass inspection on the job I contracted for. The homeowner does not want to pay for the extra work. I feel they should inspect the work my permit was approved for, and take up the other issue with the owner.
Did you move the location of the panel by more than 6'?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I disagree. The permit covers the work you are permitted for and nothing else. In your case would I have to add smokes, run new circuits etc. Where would it stop. It stops at the work you did nothing more. Now there may be a local amendment that requires this but otherwise the inspector is incorrect.
I agree. If this inspector is following the written legal requirements to update other things then he's correct.
 

Tulsa Electrician

Senior Member
Location
Tulsa
Occupation
Electrician
I did not see anything requiring you to do the work. Unless it's attached some where I did not read. When you ask them let us know the written rule. Just curious.
 

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Tulsa Electrician

Senior Member
Location
Tulsa
Occupation
Electrician
I have seen where a housing code had it listed that GFCI receptacle were required to which the electrician inspection had to I force.
Just fyi
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
This is where the problem is. The installation was most likely compliant per the code in the 50’s. You then come along and upgrade a portion of the installation now rendering it not compliant by today’s standards. Fuse to breaker conversion is not a like/kind replacement. Do you really expect the inspector to notice no GFCI’s, sign off, and walk away?

I know we like to hate on inspectors, but the inspector is doing the right thing. Perhaps he was giving you the benefit of the doubt thinking your work (or someone else’s work) had already accounted for GFCI protection, making a panel change out straight forward.
Disagree. With that logic every installation that has a portion replaced or repaired must have the entire installation brought up to current codes.
So if a main breaker is changed the entire installation must be brought up to codes? Where is the line in the sand drawn?
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
As a licensed electrical contractor you are responsible for complying with all applicable laws regardless of whether or not you considered it in your contract
are you suggesting some sort of contractual inclusion to meet the unexpected ?

~RJ~
 
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